QT, if gender is innate to identity

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

I find this too evasive. I don't think it describes the patterns.

Most people are gender conforming. They are not indifferent to gender expression in themselves or others.

I think the trans argument that gender expression is only "personality" doesn't play out.

There is a pattern of trans people being far more likely to identify as gay relative to their gender identity and far more likely to identify as gnc relative to their gender identity than the average population.

I don't think it's unrelated.

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

I find this too evasive. I don't think it describes the patterns.

I think you misunderstand me somewhat, and it describes the pattern I see, but you are free to disagree as you see a different pattern from your perspective.

I think the trans argument that gender expression is only "personality" doesn't play out.

Here is where I think you misunderstand me, as I don't believe that gender expression is only personality for most trans people. I believe in blanchardianism (not everything though). I think some transition due to being very GNC, but I don't think most transition for being very GNC in the west. I think among transitioners AGP/AAP is very prevalent, and usually they are more concerned about the body they want to have, not everyone though. Just as some gynephilic people might be more attracted to femininity than biological females, I think some people with autogynphilia might be more into femininity than desiring a female body.

There is a pattern of trans people being far more likely to identify as gay relative to their gender identity and far more likely to identify as gnc relative to their gender identity than the average population.

What are you trying to say here? You mean males who identify as women are more likely to be masculine and attracted to females than the average female? I agree with that, many of these male transitioners are "transbians" as you say, way more than we would expect had they truly been "female". But that seems like a weird argument for you to make. So are you actually trying to say that unusually many of the males who transition are homosexual and GNC? I agree with that too, homosexuals and GNC people are over represented among transitioners, but I think the AGP group is an even greater group. AGPs might be same-sex attracted too though (but usually not exclusively) and GNC (some crossdressed for sexual/gender euphoric reasons before transition). Note, this not a judgement of people with AGP/AAP, I don't really care if someone has AGP/AAP, I just don't think it makes someone the opposite sex.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

Here is where I think you misunderstand me, as I don't believe that gender expression is only personality for most trans people. I believe in blanchardianism (not everything though).

OK.

Partial blanchardianism ?

Isn't that where gc takes the bits it likes about calling men paraphiliacs and rejects the bits about essentialising gender? Would be my expectation.

I'm not a blanchardian. I think aspects of the behaviours are true but I don't find it overall workable. I'll get to that.

I think some transition due to being very GNC, but I don't think most transition for being very GNC in the west.

I really don't know the numbers these days.

I think among transitioners AGP/AAP is very prevalent, and usually they are more concerned about the body they want to have, not everyone though.

You think the "hsts" don't care about their bodies? They have less physical disphoria?

Just as some gynephilic people might be more attracted to femininity than biological females, I think some people with autogynphilia might be more into femininity than desiring a female body.

Females can be gynephilic. Isn't that a lesbian? Lesbians can be attracted to femininity in others.

Do you mean men might be more attracted to femininity than biological females?

I think you mean autogynephilia?

What are you trying to say here? You mean males who identify as women are more likely to be masculine and attracted to females than the average female?

Yes.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

I agree with that, many of these male transitioners are "transbians" as you say, way more than we would expect had they truly been "female". But that seems like a weird argument for you to make.

I think it points to three traits, orientation, expression and gender identity being related.

I know gc would not accept the words gender identity.

But it is a thing people are identifying here. So that trait then.

So are you actually trying to say that unusually many of the males who transition are homosexual and GNC?

If there was no relationship to sexuality it would the same as the gay straight ratio.

In blanchardian terms "HSTS" are over represented.

I agree with that too, homosexuals and GNC people are over represented among transitioners,

Compared to what though?

but I think the AGP group is an even greater group. AGPs might be same-sex attracted too though (but usually not exclusively) and GNC (some crossdressed for sexual/gender euphoric reasons before transition). Note, this not a judgement of people with AGP/AAP, I don't really care if someone has AGP/AAP, I just don't think it makes someone the opposite sex.

I more like to get to the theory and meta reasons of what's going on.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Partial blanchardianism ?

Blanchard is skeptical about the existence of paraphilic females, I'm not, I've talked to too many paraphilic females to be able to pretend they don't exist. I believe in what makes sense to me.

Isn't that where gc takes the bits it likes about calling men paraphiliacs and rejects the bits about essentialising gender? Would be my expectation.

I can’t unsee what I see so I will call a paraphilia a paraphilia, doesn’t mean I think it’s shameful. Regarding essentialism I don’t know what kind of beliefs you consider essentialising gender so you need to be more specific there.

Females can be gynephilic.

Yes.

Isn't that a lesbian?

Not necessarily, I tend to distinguish between gynephilia and female-attracted, I use the former for the broader etiology of being attracted to what is female associated and the latter for the sex-orientation outcome of being attracted to females.

Lesbians can be attracted to femininity in others.

If she exclusively attracted to female people I would consider her a lesbian, but if she is attracted to feminine males too, then no.

Do you mean men might be more attracted to femininity than biological females?

I think some gynephilic men have their gynephilia tied to femininity instead of females, and that would make them not straight as they would be into feminine males too, although in a gynephilic way.

I think you mean autogynephilia?

No, I meant both. I think what exists in gynpehilia can usually exist in the auto version too.

But then women who identify as same sex attracted are more likely to be gnc.

I.e translated to my words female-attracted males are on average more likely to be gender conforming relative biological sex than homosexual males, I think that’s true on a group level.

I think it points to three traits, orientation, expression and gender identity being related.

Why the identity? Unless you are referring to the AGP itself. I do however suspect the gender identity thing AGP/AAP trans people talk about often is based on AGP/AAP, the romantic part of it (gynephilia can be romantic so I think the auto version can be romantic too). But I am somewhat unsure what you referring to here.

Compared to what though?

Compared to heterosexual people, and I think that’s mainly because of gender norms.