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[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Do you think most women are leaning towards more QT thinking currently? It seems like more women are being peaked, I've only seen maybe two or three women say they were GC before changing their opinions and thoughts to be more in line with QT. It just seems like more and more women are waking up, but maybe that's not really true.

Just leaving people alone seems like the most common sense/golden rule for anyone to follow, basically ever. The irony of asking everyone to leave trans people alone but then condone and encourage people to bother or harass everyone else is darkly funny, or would be if it wasn't real.

It seemed like the laws before were just more discreet. Everything and everyone was more discreet! I believe transsexuals just fit their lives around society's rules, mores and expectations--doctors encouraged transsexuals to not reveal their history and to keep a low profile. Basic protections in areas like employment, healthcare and housing seem like fair developments. Even if we're not female, we do experience some of the same misogyny and discrimination that women do in life, and women's rights affect a lot of trans people more than trans rights do. I don't know . Even in private we still have some of the same relationship dynamics and issues with male intimate partners that straight and bi women deal with. It's not the same thing, but it's close enough that we share similar concerns and stand to gain or lose somewhat similarly regarding women's rights. It's maybe easier to stay in the trans-focused bubble because it's easy getting whatever you want all the time, whereas I can't imagine the prospect of facing discrimination and shitty treatment forever as a woman is very attractive in comparison.

The language thing bugs me because I hate it and think it's dumb, but I also don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, so I'm a little torn. It's actually really hard to not make a joke about it right now because that's just how silly and asinine I think it is. If someone told me their name was Jennyanydots and they wanted to be addressed as 'purrself', I might have to try really hard not to smile or laugh, because I'd still feel bad if I didn't at least extend the courtesy of acknowledging how they wished to be addressed. It really is dumb and silly, and I totally get not wanting to entertain another person's fantasy, so I can't really blame you or anyone for drawing a line there.

we don’t have anything uniting us other than being human, so the goal should really be just tolerance, coexistence (like on earth- not in female spaces) maybe we could hope for mutual respect (basic human decency and politeness- not respecting pronouns etc).

I guess that's a kind of friendship I would say, that's more how I would like to see things. It would be nice, but obviously aren't going to hold hands and sing 'Kumbaya' over s'mores (though that would be really fun). It probably is more important to focus on reaching mutual respect more than anything, and it's probably more attainable than most other things. That's something I often see in the sub here: mutual respect, even if it isn't 'friendly'. That probably is a better thing to strive for, at least for now.

Thank you for your thoughts on this though, I appreciate your frankness. I just like seeing people being friendly and nice to each other, and I always want to make friends, so I'm just hopeful that maybe one day this will end and we all could at the very least have a respectful relationship. I sort of wonder if the big trans 'umbrella' will fracture and it will be more clear to everyone that 'transgender' is made up of diverse people and groups, because I'm hopeful there's at least groups and people who would want those relationships. It's just my annoying optimism getting the better of me 😂

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Basic protections in areas like employment, healthcare and housing seem like fair developments.

I think everyone on the "GC" feminist side would agree. Most Republicans I know would agree too.

But unfortunately the trans lobby defines "basic protections in health care" as hormones & surgeries on demand, no "gatekeeping" or professional discretion on the part of physicians, & the automatic medical transing of children.

If there are cases where trans people have been denied health care for other kinds of issues, please provide receipts.

In the case of housing, many young trans activists today take the position that trans people seeking to rent, obtain a mortgage or join a housing coop or association shouldn't have to go through the standard credit checks & or provide references like everyone else has to do because it could reveal their "dead names" & trans status & might result in them being misgendered.

In the case of employment, many trans activists seem to think this means special rules must be put in place to allow trans-identified people to dictate to their colleagues what language they can use to refer to them in their presence as well as in their absence, to wear whatever they want to work, even if it's sexualized attire considered inappropriate in others, & to behave however they want coz of "inclusion" & "tolerance."

Yesterday, I watched a video in which a trans-identified male who looked to be age 25 or so was bragging of telling the person's supervisor at work that s/he was taking the rest of the day off coz of menstrual cramps. The person gloated over this, remarking with a smirk that since the company was aware of the employee's trans status, "they can't say anything, they can't stop me."

This is an abuse & mockery of the women's rights that women of previous generations including my generation fought for.

This offensive appropriation of female people's medical issues by a trans-identified male seems even more offensive & weird in light of the fact that actual girls & women don't customarily get time off work or school coz of menstrual cramps.

Even if we're not female, we do experience some of the same misogyny and discrimination that women do in life, and women's rights affect a lot of trans people more than trans rights do. I don't know . Even in private we still have some of the same relationship dynamics and issues with male intimate partners that straight and bi women deal with. It's not the same thing, but it's close enough that we share similar concerns and stand to gain or lose somewhat similarly regarding women's rights.

This really isn't true. The discrimination women have faced historically is because of our female sex, not coz of how we dress or our "femininity."

I don't doubt that you & other male persons like you have suffered antipathy & discrimination. I recall full well how many gay males were treated in the 60s, 70s, 80s & 90s. I knew - & helped care for - many men who died of AIDS. But the kind of animus that males who are different to other males in their presentation face is not misogyny.

Please do us all a favor & come up with your own novel terms for the unique kinds of animus & discrimination you face. Women are sick to the back teeth of male trans-identified people appropriating the terms we devised for what people of our sex experience. We are fed up with invasive male interlopers horning in & claiming that the definition of terms like "misogyny," "women," & "female" must be expanded to apply to some males.

Fight for your own rights, which are not women's rights. I know you mean well, but what you & other trans-identified males are doing is the political equivalent of coat-tailing or "drafting" on the highways - drafting meaning what a car does when it rides close behind a big rig truck in order to be pulled along so as to save fuel/energy/effort.

In the US, males were never denied the vote & various other rights - such as the right to attend school, sign a contract, apply for a patent, keep their own wages, participate in sports, get a credit card or bank loan, enter various professions & so on - because of their sex. When males have been denied rights in the US, it has been because of such factors as their race/ethnicity, economic status, political views, criminal convictions, sexual orientation - but not their sex. Women & girls have been denied a whole slew of rights because of our sex.

I have never heard of a boy or man who was kicked out of school or fired from his job because he impregnated someone. But I know of plenty of women who were kicked out of school or fired from their jobs because they got pregnant.

So many of the rights women have worked for have been about our female bodies. Contraception, abortion rights, maternity leave, the right to breastfeed in public, the right to have Pap smears & mammograms covered by health insurance plans, workplace accommodations for pregnant women & for breastfeeding women who need to pump & store milk whilst at work as well as for women going through menopause.

The International Olympics Committee has put in place a policy that's allowed a 43-year-old male with a dick & balls who once competed in male weightlifting but wasn't very good to compete in women's weightlifting in the upcoming Tokyo Games. All without even necessarily reducing his T - the IOC level allowed for "transwomen" is in the normal male range, & someone of Hubbard's age, weight, girth & level of adiposity might well have that level of T naturally. But at the same time, the Tokyo Olympics will not allow a Canadian female athlete who is breastfeeding her baby to bring the baby to Tokyo with her so she can continue to breastfeed. Tell me, how are these situations in any way similar or equivalent?

Even in private we still have some of the same relationship dynamics and issues with male intimate partners that straight and bi women deal with.

The psychological dynamics might be similar, but the physical realities are not. A male being abused by another male still has a much better chance of fighting back or running away than a female person being abused by a male does. Even males with slight builds still have such advantages as male musculature, male speed, male response time, male explosiveness male grip strength, male hand size & span, male throat circumference & cartilage, male bone density, male upper body strength, male reflexes & male punching power - which is nearly 300% times that of female people.

When my younger brother, sons & nephews were skinny boys of 14 they easily could have choked me & any other adult woman to unconsciousness or death with their bare hands - with one bare hand, in fact.

When men rape or coerce girls & women into sex, pregnancy can result. The terror of being impregnated against your will - & of worrying afterwards that you've become pregnant - is something no trans-identified males will ever experience. You won't know what it's like to take a pregnancy test, have an abortion or carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

Men who commit DV & have female partners very often start beating & otherwise abusing their female partners when the girls or women become visibly pregnant. That's not something that will ever affect a trans-identified male.

When I was 19, a male of my same age slugged me in the face with his fist - sending me flying across the room where I crashed into a wall then to the floor. With that one punch, he shattered by right eye orbit (socket), broke the bridge of my nose & caused a concussion. If he had hit a male person of the same age, it's unlikely he would have done anywhere near the same amount of damage because male skull & facial bones (& all bones) are stronger & thicker, male total body mass & solidity (thus inertia) are far greater, & males are not as vulnerable to concussion & TBI as females are.

Since then, I have suffered chronic trigeminal neuralgia around the eye whose socket/orbit was broken by a male fist, & I've had three orbital tumors that are believed to have come from nerve damage that one punch caused many decades ago. The three tumors I've had needed to be removed in three separate surgeries requiring the skills of a top neuro-opthamologist & a plastic surgeon who specializes in repairing damaged or failing muscles & tissue around the eyes. Every year, I have to go back to these guys & be examined & scanned to make sure no new tumor is growing.

I am not bringing up this experience of mine to "play the victim" or "weaponize my trauma." I am just trying to demonstrate that males who identify as trans or as women do not have any idea of what girls & women go through due to having very different physiology to yours.

The antipathy you & other trans-identified males have experienced & might still experience is wrong & unfortunate. But it's not misogyny.

The discrimination you face is not the same as the discrimination that people of the female sex face.

The vulnerability to male violence you face is not the same vulnerability that female people face.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think I touched on some of the points you brought up here in my first response to you, I'm sorry for the disorganization. It really has been the longest year

I’m so sorry for what has happened to you, that’s horrible. I especially wanted to think about what you addressed with your history regarding your biology in relation to assault and injury, because I’m not honestly sure that’s something I have really considered in differences between the sexes. That it may be even more devastating to you or any female than me really isn’t something I’ve thought about, I think because obviously I think of myself as being the same as females, despite knowing that isn’t true. It’s a little hard to think about that, but looking at it I think I can see from your perspective maybe a little better, and what you say makes lots of sense. Even if most males are bigger and stronger than me, that doesn’t make my physical vulnerability equivalent to yours or any other woman’s. We may both be physically vulnerable, but it’s in our own ways and not the same. Maybe I'm just repeating exactly what you said (which I think I am) but I think I had to write my understanding out in order to process that, I'm sorry for the redundancy and what maybe looks like me mocking what you said by repeating it back to you, that really is not my intent at all.

Thank you for sharing your own personal experiences. They're awful, and I really am sorry for all that you've been through and continue to deal with, but you sharing them really does help me to step outside of my own perspective.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gonna do numbers so it’s easier lol

  1. I think a lot of people, men and women, are peaking at the moment (hey! That was an accident lol). I’m hearing more people express GC views than ever. Even irl, I over heard two women discussing the spa thing yesterday (to be fair I live in Cali)

  2. I agree and that particular irony is something I think about all the time. It’s funny to me (at least it used to be) how much tras lack self awareness.

  3. I agree everything and everyone used to be discreet and honestly I miss it. Everyone is over saturated and over sharing imo

I obviously do disagree with doctors about not disclosing lol

Question: are you saying the rights in place for women affect trans people more than the rights in place for the trans community? How so, if that’s what you mean?

I don’t think women’s rights should be altered or compromised for trans people at all, I don’t think the rights granted to any specific marginalized group should be undermined or compromise for another. And that’s what trans rights does to female rights.

Wondering if you can elaborate on the stuff you said about sharing similar concerns and relationship dynamics

*4. See you’re a much nicer person than I am because i would tell jenny I don’t play gender games and even if I did I draw the line after they/them because the rest are just people trying to see what ridiculousness they can come up with and make us go along with (Idk if I’d say all of that but I’d def make it clear that I’m not gonna respect those “pronouns”)

*5. think Kumbaya on a personal/individual scale is absolutely possible. I’d totally have a bonfire and s’mores (and wine in a few months lol) with you and have no problem doing so with trans people I know irl unless I just don’t like them as a person lol

What I meant more is that generally speaking- or maybe it’s to say societally speaking, I think the trans community tends to push for absolute validation and acceptance at all costs -and I totally get not wanting to be a societal outlier or not wanting to be reminded of a truth you wish you could forget- but that’s just not realistic and is actually having the side effect of making the rest of us feel burdened and possibly smothered. Not a recipe for friendship or community.

*6. I honestly waiver about whether things will improve or get worse, but I think people like you and peaking will be okay no matter what (When I say “be okay” I’m talking about with regards to friendships and relationships with others in general, also when I say “people like you” I literally just mean calm, level headed, reasonable and able to listen and engage, nothing to do with being trans, just want to be clear as possible)

The trans umbrella now basically holds the whole world population in some way due to all of the different genders/identities it’s comprised of. So it’s kind of meaningless and I think people are starting to see that, or rather that we always saw it but now feel more comfortable calling it out. Honestly it was one of the first cracks in the narrative for me. When I saw them saying that wanting to get to know someone before sleeping with them was its own sexuality I knew something was off, and when we got to the point where people started putting “xe/xey afab nb andre 3000 furry pan demi hetero romantic bisexual lesbian 2.0” in their social media bios I knew we’d descended into madness

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Good call with numbers! Was trying to do the same and got confused so I gave up, sorry!! 😅

I should have specified a bit better: I think some of the rights in place for women affect some trans people more than rights in place for trans people. Some rights, like reproductive rights, will be irrelevant to biologically male bodies, but like laws regarding sex-based discrimination in places like employment affect some transwomen more than anything about gender identity might, because they're perceived as women who aren't trans.

Maybe more generally put, just how women are treated by others sometimes affects TW and especially extends into areas of discrimination or harassment or assault. Maybe for some women that elicits resentment since it would seem like TW can just stop and present as men at their convenience (and some can and do), but I don't think it's that simple for everyone. I suppose it is a choice, though, so if some women feel that transwomen aren't really experiencing discrimination because they're believed to actually be female, I can't argue the point that it is a choice beyond that gender dysphoria can make it seem like it isn't (not that that means you need to or should entertain someone's GD or identity, but I guess I'm trying to emphasize how severe it might be).

Regarding similar relationship dynamics, I suppose I'm talking about something I could never really know since I'll never be a female in a relationship with a man, but based on talking to straight and bi women it seems like we get dismissed, ignored, disregarded and left with their BS often in a very similar way--we worry about violence and assault in very similar ways (though significantly different, which I'll address more in response to Mark's comments). Of course, not worrying about pregnancy and its implications is quite a significant difference and I'm sure really affects the relationship dynamics and treatment between female and male partners in a way that it wouldn't affect same sex couples, especially between males. Maybe the similarities aren't as meaningful or pervasive as I think they are.

Based on what you and others here have shared, and from what I've seen overall so far, it really does seem like any peace will probably resolve at individual levels. The extreme ends of things sort of makes clear that some individuals in those camps don't see any way to resolution or better relationships, so it seems like only those of us who are more willing to scrutinize our own views rather than remain die-hard or inflexible either way. It's too bad the whole world being trans in some way didn't have better effects, but maybe there will be silver linings--like at least maybe because of all the frustration we all really do start treating individuals as just that rather than representative of an entire belief system. Hopefully most of us will be OK if we can just start on an individual level.

But 'andre 3000' caught me so off guard🤣 the best gender!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I get what you’re saying, and I agree to an extent. I think that women and (specifically passing) TW can experience similar social/relationship dynamics, but I also think that there are a lot of things that we associate with heterosexual (or also in this context a relationship that’s technically homosexual but presents as hetero) relationships that can and do apply to homosexual (or hetero presenting as homo) relationships. So yeah a TW in a relationship with a man may worry about the same things a woman in a relationship with a man may worry about, but I know gay men who have been abused and mistreated by their partners, and have heard of instances of abusives lesbian relationships as well (just using abuse as an example). All I mean to say is I think some things may be more typically associated with heterosexual relationships, but they aren’t exclusive to them, so to me this is more of an argument for trans people not being much different from people who aren’t trans when it comes to things that occur in our day to day lives, not so much that this connects specifically women and tw

I do agree that some laws in place for women can be helpful to trans people, and as long as it’s the laws that just protect them and don’t take from women then I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Meaning for example, if a law in place for women that keeps me protected at work also helps a TW not lose their job- that’s fantastic. But if there’s a law in place that allows a male person to take a job designated for a female if that male says he’s trans- that’s bullshit to me, if that makes sense.

And Andre 3000 would be the best gender, he’s awesome lol

[–]ausernamee 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In real life, none of the women I know supports trans ideology and none of them hate trans people. The typical perspective is that because we are sad about their suffering from dysphoria, we'll try to make them feel better by treating them as women. To trans people that's hate. Which, upon finding out that going out of your way to treat a dysphoric male in a way that will alleviate their dysphoria is engaging in bigotry because we are commuting thought crimes by recognizing them as male, can cause people who had previously, to their understanding, been supportive, to second guess what they're supporting.

Cis women want trans women to be safe and to have jobs and to have housing. Instead of accepting support for your right, it turns into bullying cis women who are allied in your human rights into thinking rightthink. You would percieve more women supporting your rights if you (collective trans community) were engaging with them about your actual rights instead of rights like sexual access and indecent exposure, which are not rights, but sex crimes in the context that they're being obtained though tricks and coercion.