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[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Good call with numbers! Was trying to do the same and got confused so I gave up, sorry!! 😅

I should have specified a bit better: I think some of the rights in place for women affect some trans people more than rights in place for trans people. Some rights, like reproductive rights, will be irrelevant to biologically male bodies, but like laws regarding sex-based discrimination in places like employment affect some transwomen more than anything about gender identity might, because they're perceived as women who aren't trans.

Maybe more generally put, just how women are treated by others sometimes affects TW and especially extends into areas of discrimination or harassment or assault. Maybe for some women that elicits resentment since it would seem like TW can just stop and present as men at their convenience (and some can and do), but I don't think it's that simple for everyone. I suppose it is a choice, though, so if some women feel that transwomen aren't really experiencing discrimination because they're believed to actually be female, I can't argue the point that it is a choice beyond that gender dysphoria can make it seem like it isn't (not that that means you need to or should entertain someone's GD or identity, but I guess I'm trying to emphasize how severe it might be).

Regarding similar relationship dynamics, I suppose I'm talking about something I could never really know since I'll never be a female in a relationship with a man, but based on talking to straight and bi women it seems like we get dismissed, ignored, disregarded and left with their BS often in a very similar way--we worry about violence and assault in very similar ways (though significantly different, which I'll address more in response to Mark's comments). Of course, not worrying about pregnancy and its implications is quite a significant difference and I'm sure really affects the relationship dynamics and treatment between female and male partners in a way that it wouldn't affect same sex couples, especially between males. Maybe the similarities aren't as meaningful or pervasive as I think they are.

Based on what you and others here have shared, and from what I've seen overall so far, it really does seem like any peace will probably resolve at individual levels. The extreme ends of things sort of makes clear that some individuals in those camps don't see any way to resolution or better relationships, so it seems like only those of us who are more willing to scrutinize our own views rather than remain die-hard or inflexible either way. It's too bad the whole world being trans in some way didn't have better effects, but maybe there will be silver linings--like at least maybe because of all the frustration we all really do start treating individuals as just that rather than representative of an entire belief system. Hopefully most of us will be OK if we can just start on an individual level.

But 'andre 3000' caught me so off guard🤣 the best gender!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I get what you’re saying, and I agree to an extent. I think that women and (specifically passing) TW can experience similar social/relationship dynamics, but I also think that there are a lot of things that we associate with heterosexual (or also in this context a relationship that’s technically homosexual but presents as hetero) relationships that can and do apply to homosexual (or hetero presenting as homo) relationships. So yeah a TW in a relationship with a man may worry about the same things a woman in a relationship with a man may worry about, but I know gay men who have been abused and mistreated by their partners, and have heard of instances of abusives lesbian relationships as well (just using abuse as an example). All I mean to say is I think some things may be more typically associated with heterosexual relationships, but they aren’t exclusive to them, so to me this is more of an argument for trans people not being much different from people who aren’t trans when it comes to things that occur in our day to day lives, not so much that this connects specifically women and tw

I do agree that some laws in place for women can be helpful to trans people, and as long as it’s the laws that just protect them and don’t take from women then I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Meaning for example, if a law in place for women that keeps me protected at work also helps a TW not lose their job- that’s fantastic. But if there’s a law in place that allows a male person to take a job designated for a female if that male says he’s trans- that’s bullshit to me, if that makes sense.

And Andre 3000 would be the best gender, he’s awesome lol