GC: Should the pronouns of a man that passes as a woman, or a woman that passes as a man be respected? What issues does using she/her pronouns for a man that passes as a woman, or he/him pronouns for a woman that passes as a man lead to?

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I feel like you asked this before and I don’t understand because if you pass people always use your pronouns. GC uses preferred pronouns for passing trans people just like everyone else. That’s what passing is.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee 4 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 7 fun -  (10 children)

If they "pass", and later I realize that so called "man" is actually a woman and that so called "woman" is actually a man, I would feel lied to. The men who think they are women and do everything to "pass as" a woman, and the women who think they are men and do everything to "pass as" a man are lying to everyone around them, and I have no respect for them, nor would I use their preferred pronouns, ever, even if they send me to jail for it. They actually gross me out, just like when someone tries hard to look like someone else via extreme face surgery. I would feel grossed out by that individual, and that's how I feel when I see a man "passing as" a woman and a woman "passing as" a man.

If GC use their preferred pronouns as long as they "pass", then glad I'm not GC I guess.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Why do you feel like you have a right to know someone’s sex or medical history? I feel like that’s invasive except in certain circumstances where someone would need to know. Trans people don’t see themselves as deceiving anyone even if you do. If you asked me my sex and I lied to you that would be different, but it isn’t deceptive just to exist.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

Depends on what moral view one adheres to. According to consequentialism, if you're a man who "passes as" a woman, and I use "she" to refer to you and you do not correct me, you may think it's a "non-action", but it is an action within itself you take to withhold information from someone who is mistaken, eventhough you can change that, which is immoral. Like the trolley problem, if you witness 5 people about to be run over by a train and you don't pull the lever so it hits the one individual on the other track, it's not a "non-action" but an action within itself and you'd be immoral for doing so. While if you're not in the scene and don't know about the train, it wouldn't be immoral not to do anything. Which in this case means if someone thinks you are a sex you're not, and you don't know about them being mistaken like this, it's fine not to correct them. It's simple.

I don't care what you think is "invasive". If someone demanded I tell them what sex I am, or show them my medical history, I would tell and show them. That information is important, especially when it comes to friendships/relationships.

It's a matter of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Asking for my medical history and what sex I actually am is not invasive, and I'm expecting the same thing from everyone else.

I believe you don't get to make people think you're a sex you're not, when you can correct them. It's gross. And that's all there is to it.

Trans people don’t see themselves as deceiving anyone even if you do.

Because they are mentally ill, and don't see reality for what it is. They think they are a sex they are not, of course they wouldn't think they are deceiving anyone, eventhough they are actually doing that.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Not telling someone your sex isn’t immoral because no one is harmed. I feel like you can say that there is a certain level of closeness in friendship where you should tell the person. u/LoveSloane has told me before that she would feel deceived. I’ve thought about that and I don’t totally agree that it means you have to share, but to me that is different than random coworkers or people you might encounter elsewhere in life. I feel strongly that if you date someone you have to tell them before anything intimate happens and not doing so would be very wrong. You should probably tell your doctor or medical professions so they don’t give you the wrong treatment too.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (4 children)

There are multiple forms of "harm", emotional and physical. E.g. when someone cheats on someone else and they realize this after just a few days of dating their partner, they are not physically "harmed", but they are "harmed" emotionally. If you said the same, that cheating in this case is not immoral, I would have called it nonsense.

Similarly, not telling someone (even a stranger) one's actual sex, when one knows the stranger is mistaken about their sex, is immoral as that would be lying. They might not be physically "hurt", but they would be emotionally once they realize you let them stay incorrect eventhough you could change that. I believe you don't get to lie to a stranger, just because they are a stranger.

It seems you follow a different "view" and don't want to take responsibility for your actions as long as they do not physically "harm" someone. Your "view" makes lying not immoral, and I do not agree with that.

Agree with u/LoveSloane if they said that they'd feel deceived.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

My actions, according to you, are just existing. If people feel they are being harmed by my existence, that’s not on me, that is on them. Plus, they wouldn’t be harmed. Even the emotional harm you describe would only happen if I told them.

There are people who feel emotionally harmed by gay people existing, does that means that gays and lesbians all become celibate and not identify that way to make those people feel batter? Would not doing so would be immoral?

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

False equivalence. That's like saying cheating, therefore emotionally "hurting" someone, is not immoral because there are homophobes who are emotionally "hurt" there are gay people and it's not immoral for gay people to exist.

You fail to understand. The issue is not you simply existing, it's you 1- thinking you're a sex you're not, 2- not correcting someone who uses she/her pronouns and falsely thinks you're a woman, in front of you. You let them stay misinformed, eventhough you can change that and correct them, which means you are lying to them, not merely existing, and that's immoral.

Funny you bring up gay people and "existence uwu" too. Where have I seen this before. Ah, when I interacted with anyone who thought they are "trans". You "trans" keep showing how homophobic you are again and again.

Anyways, didn't expect much from talking to someone who thinks they are "trans". Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

To u/LoveSloane

If you did say that you'd feel deceived if someone did not reveal their actual sex, as the so called "trans" mod of this sub has said you did, please know I agree with you 100%.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That echoes some of what I've seen some GC people say, too. Perhaps consider, though, that passing doesn't take that level of effort (or any effort at all) for some people, trans or not, and such people may have to put a bit more effort into passing as their actual sex. There are trans people who haven't underwent procedures or taken medication of any kind and pass just fine. I don't know that they're anywhere close to the majority, but they exist.

And if a person is just naturally GNC and they happen to pass or be frequently mistaken for the opposite sex, does that mean they should make more of an effort to appear as their sex for the benefit and comfort of others?

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

I hate skirts and dresses. Only wear pants and with my short hair, if someone thought I'm a man, I would correct them, that I'm a woman so they don't feel like they've been deceived. "GNC" people who do understand they are their sex (and that will never change no matter how much they cut their body parts) don't have to do anything to "pass as" their sex, because there is no such a thing. One is either a sex or they are not. No amount of so called "passing as" would change that.

I'm talking about people who think they are "trans". A woman who thinks she's a man and "passes as" a man without much effort would never correct someone who falsely thinks she's a "man", she'd let them be incorrect even after knowing they are mistaken, because it "validates" her fee fees that "omg I'm a man uwu". Same for a man who thinks he is a woman and "passes as" a woman without much effort. That's why I have no respect for such individuals. They are liars and deceivers.

By the way, I fail to understand why I'm getting answers from non-GCs here, eventhough the questions were clearly towards GCs.