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[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Since women experience hardships and difficulties that transwomen likely never will, why would those be of any concern to transwomen? (I mean, they should but it likely just doesn't enter transwomen's thoughts because some of it is likely incomprehensible.) I'm trans and have been made aware of many things I never had thought about or considered before because I'm not female.

I'd like to think that transwomen who think and act like that are just ignorant and don't know any better, not that that should absolve them but it seems better than if they were intentionally disregarding things and being bullies. But maybe I'm wrong and it's worse, or it just makes no difference.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

(Thank you for the comment. I'm going to mirror ur same terminology/spelling here just for consistency)

Because if transwomen acknowledge that women experience hardships and difficulties much different from them (and that they will never face and likely incomprehensible as you say), that would require the acknowledgement that transwomen and women are fundamentally, innately different (and this conclusion is not allowed for feminists to make). And, if they're fundamentally, innately different, then they have separate issues and separate experiences, and thus require separate spaces and separate movements. I know this isn't a forum for personal beliefs, but personally speaking I (and I think many GCs) would support separate women and transwomen movements and spaces. However, transwomen rail against the idea of cis-only spaces, cis-only groups, cis-only movements and discussion of cis-only oppression and issues, saying it's bigoted and delegitimizes their identity as women and goes against "trans women are women" (even though trans-only spaces and groups are allowed and encouraged). Recently, a rape crisis shelter in Vancouver was vandalized with dead rats and violent grafitti by trans activists for being cis-only. It seems to me, transwomen want it both ways: to claim they're no different in their womanhood from cis women and should thus be included in every women's space, while ignoring and denigrating the issues/rights women are concerned about in those spaces. I am wondering why, and how that reasoning is justifiable.

Edit: also, when i say "transwomen" I am talking about those involved in social/political discourse, activism, and feminism, since this is a forum about GC vs. transfeminism/activism. I am not saying every single transwoman has views like this.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

It seems to me, transwomen want it both ways: to claim they're no different in their womanhood from cis women and should thus be included in every women's space, while ignoring and denigrating the issues/rights women are concerned about in those spaces.

And thanks for your comment, too! What you said here describes what really is often happening. The reasoning for it is probably ignorance, as mentioned, and maybe downplaying what a transwoman does know about what women experience. I'm not really sure why, but it seems like there's a lack of empathy on the part of transwomen in these scenarios (that's not to say that transwomen lack empathy, but being unmoved by another's plight seems really indicative of empathy issues in this instance). That's probably not all, though.

A couple months ago I made and shared a video in the GC sub that I titled along the lines of 'Gender Critical feminists are people too'. MarkTwainiac pointed out how the title implied that I used to not see GC radfems as people, nor do others see them that way, which I told her I thought was (sadly) actually true: anyone who might challenge transgenderism or a trans identity is dehumanized so thoroughly, I feel like. Anything that is brought up by or about women that doesn't include transwomen is lumped in with what might be considered legitimate transphobia and no one sees the difference, so it's socially condoned and somewhat encouraged to not view or think of anyone who says such things as equals or even just people. There is something inherently cruel and hateful about it, it makes me really sad.

[–]adungitit 10 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 7 fun -  (5 children)

it seems like there's a lack of empathy on the part of transwomen in these scenarios

There is as much empathy in them as there is in your average man. It is indeed a lack of empathy, but a normal and expected one.

it seems like there's a lack of empathy on the part of transwomen in these scenarios

They think the same about women. Because women do not want to give up their hard-won rights and go against their better judgement and safety measures when it comes to male trans people, they are labelled as cruel and inconsiderate. The exact same approach is visible in the reaction to feminism in general: the fact that women push for their rights and reject misogynistic norms that men want to keep in place is constantly characterised as hateful, misandrist and supremacist. This has been the normal reaction for as long as feminism has existed. Appeals for women to centre everyone's needs but women's and to deal with being dehumanised and subjugated because "men will feel bad otherwise :,(" have always been a part of the patriarchy, because women exist as secondary characters for the benefit of someone more important and more human.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for putting this into words, because this is the only explanation I see possible, given that there has never been an alternative. As I’ve stated, I am open to alternatives but I’ve yet to see one besides the fact that they behave no differently from your average socialized male who feels threatened by feminism. We are talking about averages of course, of course there are individual transwomen who exhibit appropriate empathy just as there are individual men who exhibit appropriate empathy, but the trans activist movement as a whole, has none.

[–]adungitit 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

While magical sex changes or gender never made sense to me, before knowing any trans people I used to baselessly assume that men who related to women to the point of wanting to be them would be the rare men who I could actually feel comfortable around as a human being. I also naively assumed the same thing about male feminists. What a joke that was lol! I eventually learned that even the male communities that by all logic should've moved past their misogyny (like communities for gender nonconforming men, submissive men, or men traumatised by other men and their patriarchal hierarchies) are just as misogynistic as any other male community and are still functioning according to the exact same mindset, with all their thoughts and feelings resulting from that. And the reason really is because men do not see women as human beings, so when men do these seemingly "nonconforming" things, they're not in any way doing them as a rejection of the patriarchal system, in fact they seek to re-affirm it. They see women as inferior caricatures as opposed to the actual (male) human beings. Imitating a misogynistic caricature for the sake of a fetish doesn't require you to reconsider, let alone abandon the male supremacist view the whole thing feeds off of, and it certainly doesn't require you to consider pesky things like the caricature's rights and dignity. No-one seriously thinks about Mickey Mouse's deep feelings or mouse rights when watching his cartoons or putting his costume on. That wouldn't be fun, and he exists for other people's fun. Hence why even the most progressive male communities still treat women's rights as "political" and "controversial", why the men who say they "love women" only mean they love jerking off to male-made misogynistic fantasies, why the men who notice women don't want their shitty misogynistic sex still demand women have sex with them and why male trans people can create their insular male communities where they jerk off to anime characters and porn and think this is representative of the female experience. In men's minds, imitating or desiring women is 100% divorced from women's feelings, experience, wants, thoughts etc. If a woman were human, she would be male. Since she's not, her humanity need not enter the picture and we can focus on the sexy parts that men and their supremacist system can feel validated by.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

the fact that women push for their rights and reject misogynistic norms that men want to keep in place is constantly characterised as hateful, misandrist and supremacist. This has been the normal reaction for as long as feminism has existed.

I just want to point out that this has been "the normal reaction for as long as feminism has existed" only in some circles. In my own lifetime (born mid-1950s) there has been a sea change in prevailing attitudes towards feminism (genuine feminism, not fauxminism of the libfems), and the change has been for the worse. Dramatically so.

In the late 1960s and especially in the 70s and 80s but also through the 90s, when women would "push for our rights and reject misogynistic norms" we were not "constantly characterized as hateful, misandrist and supremacist." On the contrary, many of us were applauded and admired, and invited to write articles and books, give talks and appear on mainstream media. At least this was the case in the US where I mostly live(d).

Yes, some people back then called outspoken feminists "man haters," said we were out to "destroy the family," wanted to "lord it over" men, opined that our "real problem" was that we couldn't get laid or hadn't met the right guy, dismissed us as "granola-eating lesbian cranks" and "ugly bull dxkes with hairy armpits" and said much worse about us too such as calling us "femiNazis." But this was not the prevailing view across all of US society - and I'd even go so far as to say it wasn't the dominant view, either. Particularly amongst those privileged enough to have gotten college/uni degrees but also to a great extent amongst a lot of working class people, especially WC women, it was widely taken as a given that of course a lot of women would push for our rights and reject misogynistic norms - and we weren't demonized or dehumanized for doing so the way we routinely are by supposedly progressive, inclusive, tolerant "polite society" today.

Women back then were dehumanized and demonized in all the traditional ways for all the traditional reasons. We were reduced to sex objects and to use today's terminology "cum dumps;" regarded socially, legally & financially as the property of men; depicted as empty-headed bimbos good for nothing except fucking, making babies & keeping house; relegated to second-class status in pretty much every situation; and blamed whenever anything bad happened, including for all the violence, abuse and discrimination men committed against us. But back then there was no widespread, super popular cultural trend of dehumanizing and demonizing us simply for standing up for our rights and rejecting misogyny the way there is today when women who don't center men in our feminism are derided as TERFs.

Today, feminists who don't go along with trans dogma & parrot the lie that TWAW are routinely subjected to the most vile abuse, actively silenced and made pariahs not just by fringe activists and their groups, but by major institutions like universities, libraries, corporations, charities, the UN, the centrist & "leftwing" political parties, many governments and arms of government, book publishers, most of the mass media and nearly all the big players in social media such as FB, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok and the controllers of info on the internet such as Google and Wikipedia. Back in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, women didn't risk losing our jobs, having our contracts cancelled, being hauled before disciplinary committees, being denied financial and business services, being banned from public platforms or getting visited by the police or arrested for standing up for our rights, demanding female sports and spaces, vocally opposing misogyny, pointing out the biological differences between the sexes or laughing at the absurd notion that men can become women through use of hormones & cosmetic surgeries and coz some men say so.

Moreover, in the 70s and 80s and the 90s, establishment institutions like the Democratic party and the ACLU as well as women's organizations like American Association of University Women, NOW, NARAL, and the National Center for Lesbian Rights were all for women's rights, as were major media outlets like PBS and the NY Times - or at least they all still gave lip service to the idea of women's rights.

A good illustration comes from the glowing review by Thomas Szasz of Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire that the NYTimes published in 1979. I'll C+P the text in another post. https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Review of Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire by Thomas Szasz, MD published in the NY Times, June 10, 1979:

IN the old days, when I was a medical student, if a man wanted to have his penis amputated, my psychology professors said that he suffered from schizophrenia, locked him up in an asylum and threw away the key. Now that I am a professor, my colleagues in psychiatry say that he is a “transsexual,” my colleagues in urology refashion his penis into a perineal cavity they call a vagina, and Time magazine puts him on its cover and calls him “her.” Anyone who doubts that this is progress is considered to be ignorant of the discoveries of modern psychiatric sexology, and a political reactionary, a sexual bigot, or something equally unflattering.

Like much of the medical‐psychiatric mendacity characteristic of our day, the official definition “transsexualism” as a disease comes down to the strategic abuse of language — epitomized by confusing and equating biological phenomena with social roles (in the present case, chromosomal sexual identity with acting as a man or a woman). Although there are connections between these concepts and facts, neither one “causes'.’ or “determines” the other.

Because “transsexualism” involves, is indeed virtually synonymous with, extensive surgical alterations of the “normal” human body, we might ask what would happen, say, to a man who went to an orthopedic surgeon, told him that he felt like a right‐handed person trapped in an ambidextrous body and asked the doctor to cut off his perfectly healthy left arm? What would happen to a man who went to a urologist, told him that he felt like a Christian trapped in a Jewish body, and asked him to re‐cover the glans of his penis with foreskin? (Such an operation may be alluded to in I Corinthians, 7:17‐18.)

“But,” the medically informed reader might object, “isn't transsexualism a disease? Isn't it — in the grandly deceptive phrase of the American psychiatric establishment used to characterize all ‘mental diseases’ — ‘just like any other illness'?” No, it is not. The transsexual male is indistinguishable from other males, save by his desire to be a woman. ("He is a woman trapped in a man's body” is the standard rhetorical form of this claim.) If such a desire qualifies as a disease, transforming the desiring agent into a “transsexual,” then the old person who wants to be young is a “transchronological,” the poor person who wants to be rich is a “transeconomical,” and so on. Such hypothetical claims and the requests for “therapy” based on them (together with our cognitive and medical responses to them) frame, in my opinion, the proper background against which our contemporary beliefs and practices concerning “transsexualism” and transsexual “therapy” ought to be viewed.

Clearly, not all desires are authenticated in our society as diseases. Why the desire for a change in sex roles is so authenticated is analyzed with great sensitivity and skill by Janice Raymond in “The Transsexual Empire.” Arguing that “medicine and psychology ... function as secular religions in the area of transsexualism,” she demonstrates that this “condition” is now accepted as a disease because advances in the technology of sex‐conversion surgery have made certain alterations in the human genitals possible and because such operations reiterate and reinforce traditional patriarchal sex‐role expectations and stereotypes. Ostensibly, the “transsexers” (from psychologists to urologists) are curing a disease; actually, they engage in the religious and political shaping and controling of “masculine” and “feminine” behavior. Miss Raymond's development and documentation of this thesis is flawless. Her book Is an important achievement.

The claim that males can be transformed, by means of hormones and surgery, into females, and vice versa, is, of course, a lie. ("She‐males” are fabricated in much greater numbers than “he‐females.") Chromosomal sex is fixed. And so are one's historical experiences of growing up and living as boy or girl, man or woman. What, then, can be achieved by means of “transsexual therapy"? The language in which the reply is framed is crucial — and can never be neutral. The transsexual propagandists claim to transform “women trapped in men's bodies” into “real” women and want then to be accepted socially as females (say, in professional tennis). Critics of transsexualism contend that such a person is a “male‐to‐constructed‐female” (Miss Raymond's term), or a fake female, or a castrated male transvestite who wears not only feminine clothing but also feminine‐looking body parts. Miss Raymond quotes a Casablanca surgeon, who has operated on more than 700 American men, characterizing the transsexual transformation as follows: “I don't change men into women. I transform male genitals into genitals that have a female aspect. All the rest is in the patient's mind ".

Not quite. Some of the rest is in society's “mind.” For the fact is that Renee Richards was endorsed by Billie Jean King as a real woman and was accepted by the authorities monitoring women's professional tennis as a “real woman.” This authentication of a “constructed female” as a real female stands in dramatic contrast to the standard rules of Olympic competition in which the contestants’ bodily contours count for nothing, their sexual identity being based solely on their chromosomal makeup.

Miss Raymond has rightly seized on transsexualism as an emblem of modern society's unremitting — though increasingly concealed — antifeminism. And she correctly emphasizes that “the terminology of transsexualism disguises the reality ... that transsexuals ‘prove’ they are transsexuals by conforming to the canons of the medical‐psychiatric institution that evaluates them on the basis of their being able to pass as stereotypically masculine or feminine, and that ultimately grants surgery on this basis.” The “transsexual empire” is thus a Trojan horse in the battle between the sexes, helping men to seduce unsuspecting women, or women who ought to know better, to join forces with their oppressors.

Still, why should anyone (especially feminist women) object to men wanting to become women? Isn't imitation the highest form of flattery? Precisely herein lies the “liberal” sexologists’ betrayal of human dignity and integrity: They support the (male) transsexual's claim that he wants to be a woman — when, in fact, what he wants is to be a caricature of the male definition of “femininity.” What makes transsexual surgery a male‐supremacist obscenity is the fact that transsexing surgeons do not perform the operation on all clients (just for the money) but insist that the client prove that he can “pass” as a woman. That is as if Catholic priests were willing to convert only those Jews who could prove their Christianity by socially appropriate acts of antiSemitism. Janice Raymond's analysis is bitterly correct. The very existence of the “transsexual empire” is evidence of the persistence of our deep‐seated religious and cultural prejudices against woman.

The war between the sexes is a part of our, human heritage. It's no use denying It. If that war ever ends, it will be not because of a phony armistice arranged by doctors, but because men, women and children will place personal dignity before social sex‐role identity.

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

That review reflected what were pretty mainstream views in the USA 42 years ago. Today, not only would no establishment press outlet even consider publishing it, but it would be widely condemned as hate speech.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

A couple months ago I made and shared a video in the GC sub that I titled along the lines of 'Gender Critical feminists are people too'. MarkTwainiac pointed out how the title implied that I used to not see GC radfems as people, nor do others see them that way, which I told her I thought was (sadly) actually true: anyone who might challenge transgenderism or a trans identity is dehumanized so thoroughly, I feel like.

Fleurista, I owe you an apology for not going back to that thread on GC and continuing the exchange with you there.

I didn't go back and engage with you more about it coz I didn't want to let on how upset I was by the original title, and because I was afraid I'd say something intemperate and unfair to you. It was just a title on an obscure YT video, after all - a teeny tiny thing in the grand scheme of things. And I know you meant no offense. And you personally didn't really cause any. It was just that to me on that day, the title seemed to encapsulate in a nutshell the much bigger pattern of the way supposedly tolerant, progressive society now routinely derides women like me as subhuman, hateful verminous villains (and dinosaurs too) who deserve contempt, vitriol, abuse, rape, death and even extermination on a mass scale.

Being dehumanized and demonized like this is really distressing - and it's had a terrible effect on my own physical & mental health, much more than I like to let on. None of which is your fault. But when distressed, it's often hard to keep our emotions in check, and it's very common for anger to be misdirected. So rather than risk being unreasonable and unfair by unloading on you, I stepped away from that thread on GC and headed to the airport to politely give airline staff a piece of my mind instead: https://youtu.be/dQ--HIQdKwM

But I want you to know I very much appreciate that you changed the title - and I am sorry that I didn't tell you thanks sooner. BTW, hope you liked my outfit in the video. I was flattered that the voiceover guy took note of my "stylish plaid skirt."

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh gosh, Mark. You are going to make me cry. Maybe it's silly, but this means so much to me. Really. I'm so afraid of being inconsiderate to others or upsetting them or being unkind to them in any way, I felt so bad I had to change it. Honestly, I felt very intimidated and nervous being on here, so thank you very, very much for stepping away and sparing my feelings. And thank you so much for telling me all of this 💙

But also that was hilarious, I'm sure it looked like I was just giggling at someone's misfortune! Even with a blurry image from afar, it's clear just how incredibly stylish that skirt was, I gasped and nearly died when I saw it. Honestly I'm not even sure what happened in the rest of the video, I assume you had a quiet, lovely flight though looking totally fab. You go, girl!!! SLAYYYY🤩👏

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

I’m sorry I’m just having incredible whiplash from seeing a transwoman and GC actually get along. Wtf is going on here. Maybe I should delete my Twitter lol

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is almost like GC feminists are not really hating transgender people, like Stonewall and LibDems are saying, and almost like it is poorly written laws and attacks on women rights and kid safeguarding is what the real issue. And it is not like current definition of "trans" and new laws are opening arms for all kinds of abusers who are saying they are trans only to get free out of jail card or gain privilege (like with Wadhwa Mridul or Aimee Challenor who got jobs without background checks or any education or any skills just because they are trans) or to get access to victims.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Crazy, right? 😄 It happens. Some of us are quite fond of each other across debating lines.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

to not view or think of anyone who says such things as equals or even just people. There is something inherently cruel and hateful about it, it makes me really sad.

That's how things like nazism arised and how "good people" are turned into murdering machines, while thinking they are doing something good. It is common for cults and dictatorships, who require common enemy who is dehumanized.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Also, OP, some of us on this sub eschew the terms transwoman and transman and go with trans-identified male or female, male who identifies as the opposite sex, etc. And we've not been kicked off yet. I was very nervous when I first posted here, really felt I was walking on eggshells all the time and was about to hit a tripwire or landmine any second, but the moderators said so long as one is reasonable and respectful, they're not gonna boot me or other "GC" feminists off. The mods are all very reasonable & intelligent, not at all censorious.

You might want to read through some past threads to see the terms and arguments people have used.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol that’s weird I assumed there’d be QT who would refuse to engage with those terms. Regardless I’ll probably just mirror whatever language people use who I’m addressing to keep it consistent. Thanks for the heads up tho

Also yeah I’ll probably spend some time combing through some threads.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

I know this isn't a forum for personal beliefs

Uuh, what exactly do you think this forum is for?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I figured just debating theory??? this is my first time posting LMFAO

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

It is very much opinionated.