QT/trans: What would be the worst things to happen if the concept of gender did not exist?

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[–]AlexisK 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

I can't understand how it is related to abolition of gender at all. Gender non conformity is what stigmatized by Gender Identity movement, as it says that there must be strict gender roles of how women or men should look, act or behave. Gender Critical position is mostly to abolish gender and to promote gender non-conformity, make it norm, so everyone can look and behave however they want. So, in general, it makes very little sense in real world what you are saying.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (8 children)

You have no idea what the “Gender Identity movement” is about if you think that we support any sort of gender roles. We are the gnc people, unlike most of Gender Critical with their talk of “female appearances”. Lookin at you /u/loveSloane

[–]AlexisK 15 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

We are the gnc people

Then why politicians are pushing for puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones? Then why Mermaids and GLAAD are saying that if girl is tomboy - she is boy? Then why transwomen and transmen are making all those surgeries to look like opposite sex?

If you are just gender non-conforming - why everything is so focused on being gender conforming to opposite sex?

This sounds like gaslighting, to be honest.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 8 fun1 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 8 fun -  (6 children)

Because those things are helpful for trans kids and teenagers. Mermaid and GLAAD aren’t saying that being a tomboy is inherently evidence of being trans. We have those surgeries because of cis people being more likely to abuse us when we don’t match cis normative appearance standards, just the same as cis people who have the same surgeries do.

Everything isn’t focused on conformity, that is just the part of the trans movement that you are focused on.

Literally not how gaslighting works. In order for it to be gaslighting I have to be lying to you about my thoughts and experiences and I’m not.

[–]AlexisK 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Again.

If you are suffering from this conformity, then WHY you (as movement, politicians, organizations) are pushing this conformity so hard and demanding it? Why you are not fighting with GC feminists to abolish gender and instead reinforcing gender in laws? This just makes no sense. At all.

Mermaid and GLAAD aren’t saying that being a tomboy is inherently evidence of being trans.

Not sure about GLAAD, but Mermaids were saying that. I am not sure if they are saying this anymore, thought, as they changed their positions few times.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

We aren’t pushing conformity hard. Your side is though by working with right-wingers to further your goals. We are the ones who’ve gotten the supreme court to say that you can’t be fired for being GNC in your appearance.

Can you prove that Mermaid said any such thing?

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Literally not how gaslighting works. In order for it to be gaslighting I have to be lying to you about my thoughts and experiences and I’m not.

Huh? Gaslighting

is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment (Wikipedia)

To gaslight is to

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity (Oxford)

Gaslighting need not involve relating anything about the gaslighter's own "thoughts and experiences" at all, whether true or untrue. Often, it means lying about objective reality. Like whether the lights keep dimming and flickering as in the famous movie that gave rise to the term.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Yes but the aspect of it being gaslighting was that the man knew what was occurring and lied to the woman about what was happening. Thats what makes it gaslighting

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're acting as though your earlier post said something different to what it did actually say. You said

Literally not how gaslighting works. In order for it to be gaslighting I have to be lying to you about my thoughts and experiences and I’m not.

Which was solipsistic and untrue. Now you say that in the movie, what made the man's behavior

gaslighting was that the man knew what was occurring and lied to the woman about what was happening.

Which is very different to what you first said. And you are still missing half the definition, the part that has to do with the gaslighter intentionally manipulating. The man in the movie didn't just "know what was occurring and lied" about it, he arranged what occurred with the intent of lying to the woman about it afterwards for the express purpose of making her doubt her own perceptions and sanity.

The man played by Charles Boyer in Gaslight intentionally altered the environment the woman played by Ingrid Bergman was in (her house) by turning down the gas that fueled the lights when he left the house in the evenings. Then he continually told her that what she had seen with her own eyes - the gaslight dimming & flickering - never actually happened, it was something she imagined - and was a sign of her being neurotic, anxious, untrustworthy and most likely off her rocker.

Your claim that intentionally lying to someone else is gaslighting is not true. Even intentionally lying about something consistently over time isn't gaslighting. Gaslighting by definition involves using manipulation to try to make another person or persons doubt their own sanity.

Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton continually lied to advance their political careers and save their own asses. Bernie Madoff lied to his clients about their financial holdings for years. Many people lie on their tax forms. We all sometimes tell lies to make other people feel better: The new outfit you bought looks great on you. I'll think of you every moment you're away. The dinner you've cooked is delicious. None of these kinds of lies are gaslighting.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t see how what Im saying is any different from what you’re saying. The man had to lie about what was actually reality in order to manipulate her into doubting her own sense of reality. That description matches all given definitions