QT: Do you understand why women need single sex spaces?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

The basis of gender critical feminism is upholding women's rights.

Every branch of feminism is about upholding women's rights. What makes gender critical feminism stand out is that they're anti-trans.

Radical feminists "claiming" to have made their ideals compatible with the inherently sexist trans ideology is like Creationists claiming their beliefs are based in science while consistently failing to demonstrate it beyond prayers.

Gender criticals don't own the term "radical feminism".

Because GC have proven countless times that trans ideology is sexist, and QT has consistently failed to argue it isn't beyond "women's rights make me sad :,(" and "I have a dog, I like to bake cookies, and that's why transwomen are women".

GC has not proven anything beyond ranting about trans people. What we we are saying is gender is your inner sense of being a man, woman, both or neither amd most people have gender identities that may or may not match birth sex.

I really don't care about your narcissistic biography, I don't give a damn what you were doing at 16 on the internet, and I don't care that women's rights bother you.

I suggest you Google what NPD is before calling me a narcissist. Women's rights don't bother me. I support equal pay, ending sexual harassment, prosecuting rape, ending sex-shaming, OTC birth control, women being allowed to enter professions like garbage collecting, construction and mechanics and ending gender roles.

People saying "I'm a feminist" or "I'm not sexist" or "men are GC" or "I'm a dragon" might be valid to QT because the basis of that ideology is that any statement has validity by virtue of it being a statement made by a person. But a literal toddler can make empty claims. 

I cited surveys where men are more likely to agree with you on your anti-trans views than women.

Are the people calling themselves feminists advocating actual equality for women, or is their claim to being feminists as valid as the claim to being a dragon?

Yes we are advocating for actual equality as I stated above. Many of us also advocate for racial equality, fighting homophobia, transphobia and classism, at least in the social justice communities I participate in.

You have consistently lied and gaslit women here about the misogynistic oppression they experience, ignored all the statistics proving you wrong, claimed women's protections are based in sexism, played dumb over the patriarchy and failed to rationalise even a single point you've made because you realise how incredibly misogynistic you'd sound doing it.

Someone disagreeing with you is now gaslighting? I oppose single-sex spaces and always will.

Now, I won't deny that you can call yourself feminist, much like how you can call yourself a dragon with 6 heads.

OK, but gender critical feminism is not the only feminism. Heck, most (if not all) other branches of feminism don't accept gender critical feminism. Everyday Feminism wrote on their Facebook page that "TERFs" and "SWERFs" have a negative impact on feminism. r/AskFeminists would ban anyone who posted on r/GenderCritical or who stated GC views with a "TERFs are not allowed to pretend to represent feminism here". r/Feminism rejects gender critical feminism and r/socialjustice101 certainly rejects gender critical feminism. They even told posters not to listen to anyone who call themselves gender critical. BabyCenter, where a user told me "how can anyone not be a feminist?" rejects "TERFs", and you literally had to create your own site because every other site keeps deplatforming you.

Uuh, by believing in patriarchal ideals? Everyone should be feminist, but feminism exists in the first place because we live in a patriarchy where almost all men are deeply misogynistic, and almost all women are traumatised by their misogyny and groomed into thinking it's acceptable.

All of us are sexist to an extent because we live in a sexist society and are given sexist messages. There was a study where they sent out fake resumes for science positions. The resumes were identical except half had a male name and half had a female name. Men were more likely to get a callback, were rated more competent, and were offered higher starting salaries. Even women scientists showed prejudices against women.

[–]adungitit 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Every branch of feminism is about upholding women's rights. What makes gender critical feminism stand out is that they're anti-trans.

So you do understand that GC is a branch of feminism, and claiming that any measure of anti-trans views = GC is a lie? Great. Can we finally move on, then? I mean, I can prove my point all over again, but at some point if you decide to do the expected "If I close my eyes it can't hurt me" dance, I'll just start copy-pasting the arguments I have made until you either address them or (the most likely option) disappear.

Gender criticals don't own the term "radical feminism".

Radical feminists "claiming" to have made their ideals compatible with the inherently sexist trans ideology is like Creationists claiming their beliefs are based in science while consistently failing to demonstrate it. Sure, you can "claim" whatever you want, but can you actually prove it?

GC has not proven anything beyond ranting about trans people.

Uhhh...you can have a glance at literally any discussion on this sub and see trans ideology fall apart, fail to provide any arguments and actively avoiding debate. "Rants" are complaints, and are not presented as actual sound arguments that can be addressed with counterarguments. Arguments proving you wrong are not "rants" just because they make you feel uneasy or foolish.

Again, can you actually prove what you're saying? GC can. You have received replies in this very thread explaining in detail why you're wrong. In other threads you can see the same story playing out: GC rationalise their views with logical consistency, QT cannot engage. If GC views ARE engaged with by QT, GC easily clarifies them further, because GC ideology doesn't fall apart the moment someone doesn't nod their head at their mantra. They can deal with whatever QT throws at them, hence why GC-QT arguments tend to be so one-sided. GC doesn't respond to empty "transwomen are women" with an equally empty "transwomen are men", they actually clarify why they're men and why pretending that they are women is harmful to women's rights, and QT simply has no way to go against this.

I cited surveys where men are more likely to agree with you on your anti-trans views than women.

I...never denied that men are more likely to have anti-trans views? That men are more brainlessly hateful should be obvious to anyone with eyes, and women bending over backwards to coddle the feelings of everyone else to their own detriment is also an expected dynamic. I denied that these men are GC, because GC is a branch of feminism, and one cannot be GC if they are not feminist. Again, can you stop trying to repackage a transparent lie like this so we can move on?

Someone disagreeing with you is now gaslighting?

Lying about the reality of discrimination that women suffer that is obvious to anyone (but also confirmed by statistics) IS gaslighting. I'm not saying that people like historical revisionists are gaslighting because they "disagree", but because they're lying about easily demonstrable facts for the sake of an agenda.

I oppose single-sex spaces and always will.

Am I supposed to be impressed that you're passionate about upholding misogyny? You have been explained and proven why these protections are necessary for women and on what basis. You have continuously ignored and attempted to lie about this. You have failed to argue anything other than "because I say so" in response. Again, just making empty statements does not somehow give them merit and oblige people to bow down.

I suggest you Google what NPD is before calling me a narcissist.

Then stop assuming that all discussion should stop because you were doing shit on the internet at 16, and this should somehow erase all rational arguments up to this point. The world does not revolve around your internet habits or your buddies or how many heads you have as a dragon. None of that is relevant, and yet QT (and misogynists in general) love to derail to their own irrelevant life stories when faced with how misogynistic they are being, while also erasing the trauma that women have experienced as a result of the misogynistic myths and views they're furthering. How about instead of doing that typical act, you actually prove your point, beyond just counting on a shared belief in patriarchal mythology? Because just saying "I'm not sexist!" is something even a toddler could parrot.

Yes we are advocating for actual equality as I stated above.

You have been consistently explained in a rational manner why this "equality" is harmful to women. This has happened in this very thread, as it happens on every thread here: QT comes in parroting a misogynistic mantra, gets explained why what they're saying doesn't make sense and is misogynistic, QT either disappears or keeps parroting the same mantras, doubling down on misogyny and gaslighting, all the while ignoring any arguments. Rinse and repeat. You yourself have engaged in these tactics over and over again.

Women's rights don't bother me.

Lying about women's discrimination and furthering misogynistic myths is not feminism. Certainly you can say that you are feminist just as a Creationist is a scientist but can you prove it? Can you actually justify why the misogynistic myths you're parroting aren't myths nor misogynistic despite the measurable damage they do to women?

What we are saying is gender is your inner sense of being a man, woman, both or neither amd most people have gender identities that may or may not match birth sex.

Yaaaawn, we know. This is the most generic QT statement, the misogyny and logical inconsistencies of which have been clarified at length on this sub, over and over again, with QT fleeing or failing to argue to the contrary every single time. You could literally make a thread right this moment and you would receive replies explaining this to you in as much detail as you need. QT has never managed to argue against this. I have been on this sub for years and it has literally never happened. QT can copy+paste mantras, but the moment they're faced with the unfortunate logical conclusions and real life evidence, they disappear. You yourself do it because you've never actually thought about any of this, so you can't actually explain it beyond empty virtue signalling. You can just repeat the mantra that you're supposed to say and think about how progressive that makes you seem, and that's as far as it goes.

OK, but gender critical feminism is not the only feminism.

Ok first, did you actually use the "appeal to popularity" fallacy with REDDIT of all places, know for being a misogynistic cesspool?

Second, you are talking about liberal feminism (which, yes, exists, and I never said it doesn't?). That's the more popular feminism concerned more with getting women into kinks and selling them gender roles as "empowering", than actually improving their quality of life, hence why trans activism has so easily taken root there. Radical feminism has never been popular, because it's feminism that doesn't haggle with the patriarchy.

Most of your reply is just repeating "People can say they're dragons with 6 heads!". This has already been addressed: the fact that people can say they're something doesn't mean they are, especially when their views and behaviour go against what they claim to stand for. Can you actually prove that your views do not go against women's rights? GC can, and has done so consistently and extensively, and could do it over and over again right on this sub if you asked. QT has so far failed in every single instance to an embarrassing degree. Yes, I am aware that people can say stupid things, and that they can make feminist movements despite going directly against women's rights. Literally none of this matters. What matters is if they ARE actually going against women's rights. GC has proven they do. QT has never managed to argue they don't.

All of us are sexist to an extent because we live in a sexist society

Having sexist biases that you are aware of and working through =/= gaslighting about the patriarchy, and advocating misogynistic views and the removal of women's rights.

Even women scientists showed prejudices against women.

rofl are you actually parroting feminism 101 after you just lied and denied the statistics on victimisation of women in this very thread? Is this a flimsy attempt to soothe your guilty conscience?