GC: Is sexual attraction only based on genitals, or is there more to sexual attraction (e.g. attraction to secondary sexual characteristics, "femininity", "masculinity", etc)?

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[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

the birth sex (instead of the gender identity) wouldn't be perceptible to the person feeling or not feeling the attraction either and therefore also be nonsensical.

Even if we pretended birth sex could be “undetectable” it still wouldn’t make it nonsensical to desire someone of the correct birth sex. We consider many things we can’t see as important in attraction. A straight woman could meet a good looking man, find out it’s her father and lose all attraction even if she can’t see these unattractive shared genes without a microscope. Maybe far into the future parents can change their genes so they become genetically unrelated to their children. Most children would probably still perceive their parents as unattractive due to their parent origin. To me origin matters, even if we could create man-made females I would still only be attracted to natural females. Even a historical difference can make a difference in attraction.

You really think this couple would take birth sex based auguments toward their daughters hetrosexuality?

I was raised by homophobic religious parents. Had I hypothetically introduced a woman-identifying male as my romantic partner to my parents then yes, my parents would take my male partner's sex as evidence of male heterosexual attraction. They probably wouldn’t want me to have a trans partner either but it would be a different type of disapproval as they wouldn't see anything sinfully homosexual about it.

"apparent gender", that, in contrast to birth sex or gender identity is mutable and describes as what sex/gender the body of the transgender person appears to be to the observer

Blair White looks male to me as my knowledge of how males can look like has been updated with this male look. I can’t think of someone I know is male as being female when my brain knows that’s counterfactual. My brain categorizes known males as male and known females as female automatically. The only trans people I would continuously mistakenly perceive as being of the opposite sex are trans people who would stay in stealth forever as I wouldn’t know any better (otherwise my brain would correct itself and update the perception).

apparently vaginaplasty still has a serious lead onm phalloplasty

Penis inversion has no lead on phalloplasty. The result of the penis inversion is just easier to hide visually on photos as more of it is on the inside. Penises are also depicted culturally more often than vaginas making people overall less familiar with vaginas than penises and if someone doesn’t know how a vagina is supposed to look/feel like then they won’t be able to tell the difference.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Even if we pretended birth sex could be “undetectable” it still wouldn’t make it nonsensical to desire someone of the correct birth sex. We consider many things we can’t see as important in attraction. A straight woman could meet a good looking man, find out it’s her father and lose all attraction even if she can’t see these unattractive shared genes without a microscope. Maybe far into the future parents can change their genes so they become genetically unrelated to their children. Most children would probably still perceive their parents as unattractive due to their parent origin. To me origin matters, even if we could create man-made females I would still only be attracted to natural females. Even a historical difference can make a difference in attraction.

people are free to apply whatever criteria for partner selection they want. But I do consider conceptualizing sexual orientation as being based on imperceptible things to be nonsensical.

I was raised by homophobic religious parents. Had I hypothetically introduced a woman-identifying male as my romantic partner to my parents then yes, my parents would take my male partner's sex as evidence of male heterosexual attraction. They probably wouldn’t want me to have a trans partner either but it would be a different type of disapproval as they wouldn't see anything sinfully homosexual about it.

I highly doubt that. They would clearly notice that your partner is female in external appearance and, since people are usually at least initially attracted based on external appearance, conclude that you were attracted to said appearance. So, it seems rather doubtfull to me, that they would look at your (hypothetical partner) who as far as they can see looks like a woman and conclude that you are attracted to men, just because you told them that said partner was born male.

Blair White looks male to me as my knowledge of how males can look like has been updated with this male look. I can’t think of someone I know is male as being female when my brain knows that’s counterfactual. My brain categorizes known males as male and known females as female automatically. The only trans people I would continuously mistakenly perceive as being of the opposite sex are trans people who would stay in stealth forever as I wouldn’t know any better (otherwise my brain would correct itself and update the perception).

so your perception of someone is entirely shaped by your presumptions. So if I told you that the person in this picture https://preview.redd.it/g27ibqc27kh61.jpg?width=1288&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12dfd09d03d584f8e6e75188171ce622613dec39 was male, you would be unable to perceive said person as female, right?

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I do consider conceptualizing sexual orientation as being based on imperceptible things to be nonsensical.

That’s still being judgmental of other people's sexual orientations, to call their attraction patterns nonsensical.

I highly doubt that.

lol, I am the one who knows them. They were the ones who taught me men are adult human males and women are adult human females and that sex is immutable. If I would date male people they would of course conclude I am attracted to male people as I don’t date people I’m not attracted to. In your hypothetical scenario this male wouldn’t be in stealth so there would be no reason for my parents to counterfactually perceive this male as “female” so they wouldn’t (unless your hypothetical scenario would include my parents getting brain transplants from people who believe in sex change). They would just conclude my type in males is estrogenized.

so your perception of someone is entirely shaped by your presumptions.

Yes, if I think someone is male I perceive them as male and there is no reason think of someone I know is male as not being male.

So if I told you that the person in this picture https://preview.redd.it/g27ibqc27kh61.jpg?width=1288&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12dfd09d03d584f8e6e75188171ce622613dec39 JPG was male, you would be unable to perceive said person as female, right?

Here you make an erroneous assumption I would see you as a trustworthy source of who is male or female.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

lol, I am the one who knows them. They were the ones who taught me men are adult human males and women are adult human females and that sex is immutable. If I would date male people they would of course conclude I am attracted to male people as I don’t date people I’m not attracted to. In your hypothetical scenario this male wouldn’t be in stealth so there would be no reason for my parents to counterfactually perceive this male as “female” so they wouldn’t (unless your hypothetical scenario would include my parents getting brain transplants from people who believe in sex change). They would just conclude my type in males is estrogenized.

1.) so estrogenized that the type of "male" you are into looks like a female?

2.) I think I find the reports of people who were in that situation playing out more credible than how you imagine that situation playing out.

3.) what if the transgender women were stealth towards you? If she looked like an attractive woman, and you wouldn't know that she was born male, would you be attracted toward her or would you magically know that she were male and therefore not be attracted? (as in: if I take your knowledge about the birth sex as part of your evaluation of the apparent gender, would sexual orientation then be based on "appartent gender" ?)

So if I told you that the person in this picture https://preview.redd.it/g27ibqc27kh61.jpg?width=1288&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12dfd09d03d584f8e6e75188171ce622613dec39 JPG JPG was male, you would be unable to perceive said person as female, right?

Here you make an erroneous assumption I would see you as a trustworthy source of who is male or female.

please state whether you perceive the person in the picture I linked as male or female.

Yes, if I think someone is male I perceive them as male and there is no reason think of someone I know is male as not being male.

and of what percentage of people you see every day do you know with certainty of what their birth sex is? Do you ask everyone or do you assume based on external appearance?

[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

so estrogenized that the type of "male" you are into looks like a female?

No as in the presented scenario both I and my parents know the male is male so the male would look male to all involved.

I think I find the reports of people who were in that situation playing out more credible than how you imagine that situation playing out.

You have heard scenarios playing out with trans-validating parents. It’s strange though that you insist my parents not believing in sex change isn’t credible when you yourself are talking to someone who doesn’t believe in sex change. The only children my parents would be homophobic about dating estrogenized males are their sons. They call and view estrogenized males they know irl men, they don’t care if their feelings are hurt. There is no reason to think they suddenly would become woke on trans issues and counterfactually think males can be female just because I would date one in this hypothetical scenario.

what if the transgender women were stealth towards you? If she looked like an attractive woman, and you wouldn't know that she was born male, would you be attracted toward her or would you magically know that she were male and therefore not be attracted?

An attraction based on a perception mistake is an attraction to the misperception, the illusion in the head, not the mistaken person. This male would be disrespectful for not telling me, a wannabe rapist if this male is planning rape by deception, this male also lacks the mental strength deal with their biological sex without lying and is too stupid to understand an inverted penis isn’t going to pass as a vagina to a lesbian. So no, I wouldn’t be attracted to this male, the traits this male has would be unattractive even in a female person, any attraction would be therefor be to an imaginary non-rapey respectful female person, everything this male is not.

if I take your knowledge about the birth sex as part of your evaluation of the apparent gender, would sexual orientation then be based on "appartent gender"

No, you are doing the typical mind fallacy. First, I am attracted to the female sex, not gender anything. Secondly it’s not “apparent” female sex, just female sex. Calling it apparent is doing word games as there is a difference. I can’t act on things I don’t know but doesn’t means I don’t care about things I don’t know, I care a great deal. Some people say if their partner has been unfaithful then they wouldn’t want to know, they are into apparent faithfulness, not real faithfulness. Others say if their partner has been unfaithful they want to be told so they can break up and find a real faithful partner, they are not into apparent faithfulness, they are into real faithfulness.

please state whether you perceive the person in the picture I linked as male or female

Perception is Bayesian so are you asking about a prior probability? Is this someone you know as you are eager?

and of what percentage of people you see every day do you know with certainty of what their birth sex is? Do you ask everyone or do you assume based on external appearance?

Perception is Bayesian, known males are those who have an incredibly high probability of being male. It’s like saying I know my mother is my mother, I think the probability she is my mother is incredibly high, but there could be a slight chance I might have been switched as a baby but I see the probability of that as negligible. How male or female someone looks to me is therefor the certainty I have of that person being male or female. This means estrogenized males who are famous for being male (like Blair White, Zinnia Jones, Contrapoints etc) look more male to me than most random males I see on the street as I am more certain Contrapoints etc actually are male than I tend to be of random males (as I could potentially mistake a testosterone-supplementing female for male, slightly reducing the certainty of the random ones).