GC: Is sexual attraction only based on genitals, or is there more to sexual attraction (e.g. attraction to secondary sexual characteristics, "femininity", "masculinity", etc)?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

So for neovaginas, sure, there are the trainwrecks (no linking to neovaginadisasters neessary), but I have definetly seen one that look good,

Where, pray tell, did you see a neovagina?

The vagina is an internal organ. The only people who see vaginas are gynecologists. I'm old, but in all my life I've never seen my own vagina or that of any other girl or woman. I've had children come out of my vagina, but they didn't see it coz babies are born with their eyes closed. I also had my uterus removed vaginally, but still never saw my vagina or anyone else's.

Also, what does it matter that you claim you've seen a surgically constructed "neovagina" in a male that "looks good" anyways? A vagina is a unique female organ that is not about its looks. A vagina has myriad functions. It's a self-cleaning muscular tube with its own unique flora that serves as the passageway for the removal of the sloughed off uterine lining during menstruation, and as the birth canal that women use to give birth to new human beings. It's not merely a hole to be fucked.

The "neovaginas" males get surgically created out of their male genitals and skin taken from other parts of their male bodies are nothing like actual vaginas. And vaginas are not a fashion accessories that men distressed about their sex can go out and purchase, then flaunt to feel better about themselves.

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Also, what does it matter that you claim you've seen a surgically constructed "neovagina" in a male that "looks good" anyways? A vagina is a unique female organ that is not about its looks. A vagina has myriad functions. It's a self-cleaning muscular tube with its own unique flora that serves as the passageway for the removal of the sloughed off uterine lining during menstruation, and as the birth canal that women use to give birth to new human beings. It's not merely a hole to be fucked.

That might be. But in terms of sexual relations, I fail to see how any of the functions other than "merely a hole to be fucked" are relevant. You really think that a hetrosexual man is going to base his sexual attraction towards a person who's apparent gender he clearly perceives to be female even after said person is completly naked in front of him on whether the person in question menstruates or is capable of birth (e.g. factors said man can not perceive - which brings me back to the point that considering imperceptible factors to be relevant to sexual orientation is nonsensical)?

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

in terms of sexual relations, I fail to see how any of the functions other than "merely a hole to be fucked" are relevant

You're viewing the vagina solely from a male perspective. Even when we are having heterosex, women don't experience the vagina as "merely a hole to be fucked."

You're also viewing (hetero)sexual relations as though they are always for pleasure only and thus completely divorced from reproduction. When, in fact, many people of both sexes are indeed concerned with finding someone to procreate with from the time they first become interested in sex and start dating. Also, lots of people have sex for the expressed purpose of TTC.

You really think that a heterosexual man is going to base his sexual attraction towards a person who's apparent gender he clearly perceives to be female even after said person is completly naked in front of him on whether the person in question menstruates or is capable of birth (e.g. factors said man can not perceive

You seem to be assuming that the sex heterosexual people have is only hookups or ONSs with people they've just met and hardly know. But lots of people meet and get to know other people before having sex with them - in fact, that traditionally has been the norm in M-F relationships. In the process, the two people get to know all sorts of things about each other - often including whether a seemingly female potential partner menstruates, how recently her last period was, whether she gets cramps, what kind of menstrual products she uses, does she get PMS of PMDD, and so on.

You also seem to be assuming that most het couples in their first sexual encounter with one another go immediately to standing naked in full view of each other right away, they typically do this before they engage in sex acts, and their first sex act usually involves PIV intercourse. But this is not true. Used to be, most couples started with make-out sessions, then proceeded to various forms of "petting," then to manual touching of the genitals - all with their clothes on. PIV and full disrobing came much later, if it happened at all.

From many encounters in which he put his hand in a girl/woman's pants or up her skirt and fingered her genitals, a male definitely could tell if he was dealing with a real female coz the genitals of real female people have a distinct feel and smell. The folds of skin inside a vulva, and the clitoris, don't feel like the skin that male genitals are made of, nor do male and female genitals behave in the same way - so I can't imagine any male who has touched female genitals at length wouldn't quickly be able to tell that something is off when he uses his fingers to caress, explore and attempt to arouse a fake vulva made of scrotal sac and a relocated penis glans. There'd be no corresponding lubrication, to start with. And since the flora of female genitals are nothing like the flora that grow in surgically-created neo-vaginas, they have entirely different odors as a result - so the smell they'd leave on a male's fingers afterward would be very different too.

What's more, even after after a couple has PIV, lots of girls and women took/take a very long time before feeling comfortable standing naked in front of their male partners. Some girls and women, particularly of older generations and from certain cultural backgrounds, never felt comfortable standing naked even in front of their husbands of many decades.

You further seem to be assuming that there's no way a male could tell whether his apparently female partner menstruates coz female people don't have sex when menstruating. When, as a matter of fact, many do and always have. Many women are extremely desirous of sex when menstruating.

If you really think it's so hard for male people to tell if the female potential partners they know are capable of menstruating or giving birth, it sounds like you haven't spent much time around female people between the age when the puberty of adolescence begins and menopause ends observing the changes that many girls and women's bodies go through over the course of our/their monthly cycles. Such as the way many of our breasts markedly swell prior to when our periods start, and the way the shape of our facial features, ankles, wrists and abdomen subtly change over the course of the month due to varying degrees of water weight.

which brings me back to the point that considering imperceptible factors to be relevant to sexual orientation is nonsensical)?

But what do mean by imperceptible here? You seem to be suggesting that the only sense that really matters in sexual attraction is sight, and that any factors that aren't glaringly obvious to the eye of a male who is not particularly observant, sensitive and/or experienced and familiar with the bodies of (biological) girls and women are the same as imperceptible. When, in fact, sexual attraction has to do with all the senses - smell, touch/feel, taste, hearing as much as with sight - and also with many far more mysterious factors that we humans pick up on but which are beyond or below our conscious awareness. Such as pheromones.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

You're viewing the vagina solely from a male perspective. Even when we are having heterosex, women don't experience the vagina as "merely a hole to be fucked."

which is irrelevant, since that is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is about how her partner feels about the vagina in question.

You're also viewing (hetero)sexual relations as though they are always for pleasure only and thus completely divorced from reproduction. When, in fact, many people of both sexes are indeed concerned with finding someone to procreate with from the time they first become interested in sex and start dating. Also, lots of people have sex for the expressed purpose of TTC.

if the person in question does care about having children, then this would also necessarily exclude any women who don't want to or, whether by choice or not, can't have children, regardless of transgender status.

You seem to be assuming that the sex heterosexual people have is only hookups or ONSs with people they've just met and hardly know. But lots of people meet and get to know other people before having sex with them - in fact, that traditionally has been the norm in M-F relationships. In the process, the two people get to know all sorts of things about each other - often including whether a seemingly female potential partner menstruates, how recently her last period was, whether she gets cramps, what kind of menstrual products she uses, does she get PMS of PMDD, and so on.

You further seem to be assuming that there's no way a male could tell whether his apparently female partner menstruates coz female people don't have sex when menstruating. When, as a matter of fact, many do and always have. Many women are extremely desirous of sex when menstruating.

If you really think it's so hard for male people to tell if the female potential partners they know are capable of menstruating or giving birth, it sounds like you haven't spent much time around female people between the age when the puberty of adolescence begins and menopause ends observing the changes that many girls and women's bodies go through over the course of our/their monthly cycles. Such as the way many of our breasts markedly swell prior to when our periods start, and the way the shape of our facial features, ankles, wrists and abdomen subtly change over the course of the month due to varying degrees of water weight.

I have never seen anyone female attracted, whether it's lesbians or straight men, going on about how attractive they find their partners capability to menstruate. In fact, given how grossed out most men are about anything having to do with menstruations, their partner not menstruating might as well be a plus.

But what do mean by imperceptible here? You seem to be suggesting that the only sense that really matters in sexual attraction is sight, and that any factors that aren't glaringly obvious to the eye of a male who is not particularly observant, sensitive and/or experienced and familiar with the bodies of (biological) girls and women are the same as imperceptible. When, in fact, sexual attraction has to do with all the senses - smell, touch/feel, taste, hearing as much as with sight - and also with many far more mysterious factors that we humans pick up on but which are beyond or below our conscious awareness. Such as pheromones.

1.) while other senses might come into play, sexual attraction is primarily visual, or why else do you think most erotica is visually (e.g. videos, pictures).

2.) phermones are a nice point, since the sex phermones released by a human are entirely determined by the hormone levels of the human. So, a transgender woman on HRT would actually have a female phermone profile.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

1.) while other senses might come into play, sexual attraction is primarily visual, or why else do you think most erotica is visually (e.g. videos, pictures).

Erotica made by men for other men and by women who have adopted the male model to please males and conform to male standards in a male-dominated culture is mostly pictorial. You'll never understand human sexuality if you keep viewing everything exclusively through a male lens/gaze and seeing males as the human norm.

I have never seen anyone female attracted, whether it's lesbians or straight men, going on about how attractive they find their partners capability to menstruate. In fact, given how grossed out most men are about anything having to do with menstruations, their partner not menstruating might as well be a plus.

Sounds to me like you'd do well to broaden your social circle, and that you've had very little in the way of IRL sexual relationships with female humans.

Most female-attracted men and boys who aren't misogynists and who have healthy view of sexual relations with girls/women and respect for us are not "grossed out by anything having to do with menstruation" like you are. At all. This is true even of young men who've come of age during the age when online porn has been source of what passes for "sex education," and who've been influenced by the extreme misogyny of the internet and the widespread disgust/dissociation towards natural human bodies and their natural processes that gender ideology and a lot of online culture with its penchant for artifice, posing and plastic surgery promotes. Yes, some of these men share your revulsion. But certainly not all. Not even most.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/119625-what-guys-really-think-of-period-sex

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/amp51811/sex-talk-realness-guys-on-period-sex/

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a10039967/period-sex/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/14-men-and-women-get-very-very-real-about-period-sex_n_572cb40ee4b016f378957b12

https://www.essence.com/love/sex-while-menstruating/

Since female people personally gross you out so much, then obviously you wouldn't want to have sex with any, nor should you! It sounds like you're convinced that most men would prefer having sex with a male who has been hormonally and surgically altered to appear somewhat like a member of the opposite sex than with a bona fide female. Which is your prerogative.

But if that's the case, it's silly to set yourself up as authority on human sexual attraction. Fact is, the revulsion you feel towards female human bodies and processes that you assume everyone else must feel too is NOT a universal human sentiment held by all persons of both sexes and all sexualities.

Besides, the issue under discussion was not whether people find menstruation or the capacity to menstruate sexually attractive. The issue was your claim that there'd be no way a male human could tell if a potential sex partner of his had the capacity to menstruate. Which I refuted.

2.) phermones are a nice point, since the sex phermones released by a human are entirely determined by the hormone levels of the human. So, a transgender woman on HRT would actually have a female phermone profile.

No, that's a supposition. Many complicated processes have to occur within a human body for the internal sex hormones to be turned into the ectohormones known as pheromones. Also, a male human who takes exogenous estrogen does not have the same hormone profile as a female human.

Pheromones in humans may be present in bodily secretions such as urine, semen or vaginal secretions, breast milk and potentially also saliva and breath, yet most attention thus far has been directed toward axillary sweat.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987372/

Also, the research indicates that women emit particular pheromones during different stages of the ovulation-menstrual cycle, with the ones most attractive to members of the opposite sex occurring at the time of ovulation.

https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/15/4/579/205993

Pray tell, how is a male, even a male with a surgically constructed pelvic pocket he calls a vagina, going to approximate a female's vaginal secretions and flora? How can he mimic the the pheromones of ovulation, in female breast milk and female urine?

(BTW, a reason male and female urine smells different and probably has some other yet-to-be-determined differences is coz female and male human kidney function has been found to be different - and the differences appear to be the result of sex chromosomes, not hormones. In fact, recent research shows that a lot of sex differences once assumed to be the result of males' and females' different hormone profiles are actually caused by differences in the two sexes' sex chromosomes.)

You also did not address any of the other kinds of changes that women go through over the course of the menstrual cycle that function as sexual cues. How could a male possibly mimic any/all of the various signals that women naturally give out at various times without any effort or conscious awareness?

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/face-fertility-why-do-men-find-women-who-are-near-ovulation-more-attractive-10359906.html

BTW, although it's been common for men to be present when their partners are giving birth since the 1970s, and some men report feeling grossed out and less sexually attracted to their partners as a result, this is far from the majority experience. Most men are extremely keen to get back to having PIV sex ASAP after birth. This actualy causes a lot of problems for many women post partum. But it goes to show that the revulsion you personally feel towards natural female bodies and our natural bodily processes is not shared by the vast majority of men. If it were, then in countries where men customarily attend childbirth there would be no families with more than one child.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Erotica made by men for other men and by women who have adopted this model is mostly pictorial. You'll never understand human sexuality if you keep viewing everything exclusively through a male lens/gaze and seeing males as the human norm.

1.) if sexual attraction being based primarily on visual cues is purely the "male lens", then what is female initial sexual attraction based on?

2.) as males make up half the human population, the "male lens" would still be a necessary component for a complete conceptualization of human sexuality.

Sounds to me like you don't have a very varied social circle, and that you've had very little in the way of IRL sexual relationships - and perhaps none with female humans.

Most female-attracted men and boys who aren't misogynists and who have healthy view of sexual relations with girls/women and respect for us are not "grossed out by anything having to do with menstruation" like you are. At all. This is true even of young men who've come of age during the age when online porn has been source of what passes for "sex education," and who've been influenced by the extreme misogyny of the internet and the widespread disgust/dissociation towards natural human bodies and their natural processes that gender ideology and a lot of online culture with its penchant for artifice, posing and plastic surgery promotes. Yes, some of these men share your revulsion. But certainly not all. Not even most.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/119625-what-guys-really-think-of-period-sex

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/amp51811/sex-talk-realness-guys-on-period-sex/

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a10039967/period-sex/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/14-men-and-women-get-very-very-real-about-period-sex_n_572cb40ee4b016f378957b12

https://www.essence.com/love/sex-while-menstruating/

Since female people personally gross you out so much, then obviously you wouldn't want to have sex with any, nor should you! It sounds like you're convinced that most men would prefer having sex with a male who has been hormonally and surgically altered to appear somewhat like a member of the opposite sex than with a bona fide female. Which is your prerogative.

But if that's the case, it's silly to set yourself up as authority on human sexual attraction. Fact is, the revulsion you feel towards female human bodies and processes that you assume everyone else must feel too is NOT a universal human sentiment held by all persons of both sexes and all sexualities.

3.) at no point did I state that I am grossed out by menstruation. My statement was, that men in general tend to be grossed out by menstruation. I did not make any statment towards my personal feelings on the matter.

4.) That man tend to have a ngeative view of menstruation has, in fact, been a cross-cultural phenomen, with patriacal societies clearly having significant taboos towards it ( According to anthropologists Thomas Buckley and Alma Gottlieb, cross-cultural study shows that, while taboos about menstruation are nearly universal, and while many of these involve notions of uncleanliness, numerous menstrual traditions "bespeak quite different, even opposite, purposes and meanings."[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_and_menstruation , Many religions have menstruation-related traditions, for example: Islam prohibits sexual contact with women during menstruation in the 2nd chapter of the Quran. Some scholars argue that menstruating women are in a state in which they are unable to maintain wudhu, and are therefore prohibited from touching the Arabic version of the Qur'an. Other biological and involuntary functions such as vomiting, bleeding, sexual intercourse, and going to the bathroom also invalidate one's wudhu.[68] In Judaism, a woman during menstruation is called Niddah and may be banned from certain actions. For example, the Jewish Torah prohibits sexual intercourse with a menstruating woman.[69] In Hinduism, menstruating women are traditionally considered ritually impure and given rules to follow.[70][71] , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation#Society_and_culture)

5.) even if the secondary effects of menstruation do influence the amount of sexual attraction, this clearly is not sufficent to overrule visual factors.

6.) what about women that don't menstruate? Menstruation suppression is a thing, and a significant portion of women do not wish to experience menstruation (With the recent FDA approval of menstrual suppression medications, researchers have begun to shift their focus to the attitudes of American women toward their periods. One study in particular found that 59% of the women they surveyed reported an interest in not menstruating every month. Of these, 1/3 said they were interested in not menstruating at all anymore.[96] , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_and_menstruation#Menstrual_suppression). If the capacity to menstruate were a crucial component of sexual orientation, women who don't menstruate would be entirely unattractive to female attracted people.

Besides, the issue under discussion was not whether people find menstruation or the capacity to menstruate sexually attractive. The issue was your claim that there'd be no way a male human could tell if a potential sex partner of his had the capacity to menstruate. Which I refuted.

my claim was, that sexual attraction, and, by exentsion, sexual orientation is primarily based on "apparent gender" as in, what the person in question perceives to be the other persons sex/gender to be. And menstruation has little to no significance in regards to this, as women that don't menstruate due to birth control or hysterectomy are not suddenly perceived to not be women by their sexual partners.

No, that's a supposition. Many complicated processes have to occur within a human body for the internal sex hormones to be turned into the ectohormones known as pheromones. Also, a male human who takes exogenous estrogen does not have the same hormone profile as a female human.

with the processes in question also controlled by hormones. And post-gonadectomy the hormone levels aimed at by transgender people are the same as in cisgender people of the same gender ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(female-to-male)#Hormone_levels )

Also, the research indicates that women emit particular pheromones during different stages of the ovulation-menstrual cycle, with the ones most attractive to members of the opposite sex occurring at the time of ovulation.

with the changes in phermones also caused by changes in hormones. If a transgender woman wanted, she might as well try to emulate the hormone levels (and therefore phermones) at the time of ovulation. Just permanently.

Pray tell, how is a male, even a male with a surgically constructed pelvic pocket he calls a vagina, going to approximate a female's vaginal secretions? How can he mimic the the pheromones of ovulation, in female breast milk and female urine?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of lesbians and heterosexual men don't decide whether they are attracted to a particular women based on her vaginal secretions, urine or breast milk.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of lesbians and heterosexual men don't decide whether they are attracted to a particular women based on her vaginal secretions, urine or breast milk.

You really don't understand how any of this works, do you? These are not matters we decide or any of us decides.

Sexual attraction is rooted in instincts that arose coz we are members of an animal species that reproduces sexually. As a species with higher intelligence, we humans come up with all sorts of ways to rationalize our sexual orientation, tastes, preferences, behaviors. But what we find sexually attractive is not a product of rational thought. It's a matter of primal, primitive urges and animal instincts that evolution has endowed us with.

3.) at no point did I state that I am grossed out by menstruation. My statement was, that men in general tend to be grossed out by menstruation. I did not make any statment towards my personal feelings on the matter.

Ah, but methinks you have indeed made your personal feelings quite clear.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Sexual attraction is rooted in instincts that arose coz we are members of an animal species that reproduces sexually. As a species with higher intelligence, we humans come up with all sorts of ways to rationalize our sexual orientation, tastes, preferences, behaviors. But what we find sexually attractive is not a product of rational thought. It's a matter of primal, primitive urges and animal instincts that evolution has endowed us with.

precisely. It is not rooted in rational thought, but in primal animalistic instincts. So the abstract knowledge "The person I perceive with my senses to be female/male was born male/female" doesn't measure into sexual attraction. Therefore, sexual orientation is based on apparent gender.

Ah, but methinks you have indeed made your personal feelings quite clear.

I did not. I merely stated what I know about how other people feel about this issue.

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

in terms of sexual relations, I fail to see how any of the functions other than "merely a hole to be fucked" are relevant.

People tend to selective about the holes they want to fuck. I’m into vaginas, I am not into anus for example. Vaginas and inverted penises aren't the same, they don't look the same and it's self explanatory they wouldn't feel the same or taste the same either.

You really think that a hetrosexual man is going to base his sexual attraction towards a person who's apparent gender he clearly perceives to be female even after said person is completly naked in front of him on whether the person in question menstruates or is capable of birth (e.g. factors said man can not perceive - which brings me back to the point that considering imperceptible factors to be relevant to sexual orientation is nonsensical)?

I’m not male so I can’t speak for males but as a lesbian my sexual attraction to a woman is certainly based on the woman actually being female, I would have to find her good looking and like her personality too, all three are requirements.

To me female secondary sex characteristics are sexy because they signalize the person is of the female reproductive sex and has a female origin. When the person is male these traits don't signalize femaleness making me indifferent to these traits in male people. Knowing a woman has menstrual cycle and is capable of birth is something I find attractive as that means she is female, and I find femaleness attractive.

considering imperceptible factors to be relevant to sexual orientation is nonsensical

As it's prevalent that these factors are relevant it can't be nonsensical to consider them relevant.

[–]anxietyaccount8 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That might be. But in terms of sexual relations, I fail to see how any of the functions other than "merely a hole to be fucked" are relevant.

Women have a functioning vulva too. Don't forget about that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think the poster who thinks the human vaginas is "merely a hole to be fucked" has any idea that the vagina and vulva are separate. I tried to point out that said poster was confusing a vagina for a vulva, but it seems to have flown right over his head.