GC: I believe if features are sexed, and secondary sex characteristics are innate to a man or a woman, then sex is determined by secondary sex characteristics and the gender essentialism that tras believe in is true. If you disagree, then tell me your reasons

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[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How are humans made? What does that have to do with anything?

Do you understand what "sexual reproduction" is? A person's sex is which reproductive system they have. Their primary sexual characteristics are their sexual reproductive system. Babies are made by the interaction of two of those systems - one from column A, one from column B. Those systems cause secondary characteristics - people with a sexual reproductive system that produces sperm also have more testosterone, so tend have more hair, larger bones, and so on. A person with a womb tends to have softer skin and mammary glands in her chest, with more breast tissue around it - but these things vary. The key part that does not change and that defines who is male and who is female is which reproductive system you have.

You can get a lot of plastic surgery to look different, but if you still have a reproductive system, you are still male or female. If you have your reproductive system entirely removed, you are no longer technically sexed, but you don't become the other sex.

For people who medically alter themselves like this, I think it is a form of trans humanism, and that we should talk about how to deal with this new technological aspect of life since obviously it is becoming more normal. However, it doesn't change your reproductive sex so it is basically just weird cosmetic surgery.

According to that, these same features/characteristics determine one's sex as they are innate to that sex.

The only part innate is your reproductive system. Everything else is SECONDARY characteristics. That means it's not innate. As you said above, "associated with", common to, usually the case, but not necessary. You can have hairy women and men with boobs naturally.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The only part innate is your reproductive system. Everything else is SECONDARY characteristics. That means it's not innate. As you said above, "associated with", common to, usually the case, but not necessary. You can have hairy women and men with boobs naturally.

I think you are misrepresenting the meaning of innate." It means inborn, natural. Which is very different from essential or fundamental.

In most of the human population, secondary sex characteristics are indeed innate, inborn, natural. Although both males and females take measures to remove or shape facial and body hair, and many do exercises and wear clothes meant to accentuate the appearance of secondary sex characteristics, very few people on earth have had or will ever have surgeries, take hormone treatments or undergo other extreme interventions to alter our/their inborn, natural secondary sex characteristics.

Also, whilst many men have "boobs naturally" they cannot fulfill the same reproductive functions as the breasts of mature females. In females, mature breasts are both secondary sex characteristics and reproductive organs that can and are meant to fulfill a vital role in the survival of offspring and the perpetuation of the human species.

[–]emptiedriver 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In most of the human population, secondary sex characteristics are indeed innate, inborn, natural.

Of course, but the point is that you can't judge the sex by them. It isn't defined by the secondary characteristics because those are the things that happen as a result of the primary characteristics. They do usually happen, but if they don't, that doesn't change a person's sex.

I think innate means inborn and essential, like a characteristic is either part of your nature or caused externally. The question of what innate characteristics of a woman would be is different for innate to individual women and innate to the entire sex. Large breasts can be innate to Justine but we can't say they're innate to every woman. Some healthy mature women just have flat chests but XX chromosomes are innate to women

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think innate means inborn and essential, like a characteristic is either part of your nature or caused externally. The question of what innate characteristics of a woman would be is different for innate to individual women and innate to the entire sex.

Just to clarify: The secondary sex characteristics that individual humans might or might not develop during and after puberty are not the same as the essential qualities that determine and define the two human sexes as categories. Secondary sex characteristics are not essential determinants of the two human sexes - male or female. Human fetuses and children all have a sex, and can be sexed, many years before the time when humans develop secondary sex characteristics.

Large breasts can be innate to Justine but we can't say they're innate to every woman. Some healthy mature women just have flat chests but XX chromosomes are innate to women

Agreed. But it's also important to note that many women's breasts tend to vary in size over the course of the menstrual cycle - and over the course of the life cycle, most women's breasts will change dramatically in size due to pregnancy and childbirth, and coz of fluctuations in weight and the aging process. Even women whose breasts are/were usually small tend to have large breasts after giving birth when their/our milk comes in and so long as they/we breastfeed.

Also, girls and women who have their breasts entirely removed due to breast cancer or "gender identity" claims do not become any less female as a result.