GC: I believe if features are sexed, and secondary sex characteristics are innate to a man or a woman, then sex is determined by secondary sex characteristics and the gender essentialism that tras believe in is true. If you disagree, then tell me your reasons

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[–]slushpilot 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Physical traits like height and body shape are not "gender essentialism".

GC denounces gender essentialism, but recognizes differences between the two sexes. That's the part you're missing: gender is not sex.

[–]MissDimples 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

"Gender essentialism" is also called biological essentialism, which is these "differences between the two sexes" you're talking about, differences that have nothing to do with genitalia.

Gender essentialism, or biological essentialism, is the belief that certain characteristics like body shape, height, and even masculinity, femininity, and simply personality are innate and natural essences of a woman or a man.

Biological essentialists say that men are tall, women are short, men have more body hair, women have less body hair, etc, and that if a man tries to induce these characteristics that are an essence of a woman in himself*, then he becomes more of a woman and less of a man.

You are not denouncing this gender essentialism, or biological essentialism, you are arguing for it

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Nope. Gender essentialism is the idea that women are innately softer, more nurturing, prone to wanting prettiness etc. and that men are hard, brutish, and unemotional etc.

Recognising sexual dimorphism is not gender or biological essentialism. It’s not assigning any value to either trait, just describing what occurs in 99% of the population.

You’ve got some very confused ideas going on.

[–]MissDimples 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

"Sexual dimorphism" doesn't mean when a man has boobs, smoother skin, shorter height, etc, he's "feminized" or "looks like a woman", or that when a woman has really small breast tissue, taller height, etc she is "masculinized" or "looks like a man". There's also an issue with "sexual dimorphism", it varies specie by specie, and is really low in humans, so ...

Human male and female appearances are perceived as different, although Homo sapiens has a low level of sexual dimorphism compared with many other species. The similarity in the sizes of male and female human beings is a good example of how nature often does not make clear divisions.

https://www2.nau.edu/~gaud/bio300b/sexdi.htm#:~:text=Human%20male%20and%20female%20appearances,does%20not%20make%20clear%20divisions.

What you call "sexual dimorphism" is humans' putting the two sexes in boxes that don't really fit them, just because they think it's easier for them to say "women look like xyz" or "men look like abc", nature doesn't care. You see why tras say "sex is bimodal"? Well, it's not sex that is bimodal, but the "sexual dimorphism" is what's bimodal. You see all these characteristics you think are only essences of women also exist in men, and all these characteristics you think are only essences of men also exist in women.

Gender essentialism doesn't just argue that psychologically women are softer, etc and men are brutes.

Gender essentialism takes into account "sexual dimorphism". Where do being more nurturing and being brutish come from? Psychology, which really means the brain, and the brain has evolved. Pretty sure brains didn't stay untouched and didn't stay the same between men and women in evolution, just like the other body parts did not stay untouched and the same. The differences between the body parts of men and women is called "sexual dimorphism". Brains are parts of the bodies. So the brain differences, which lead to the differences in psychology are a part of "sexual dimorphism" which then are what gender essentialism or biological essentialism argues are essences of men or women.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Right, sexual dimorphism in humans, whilst not as obvious as being brightly coloured or 45x larger than the other sex, is males typically having larger bones, coarser body and/or facial hair, lack of breasts, a more narrow pelvis, etc and females having a higher fat distribution, a wider pelvis, lower muscle density, developed breasts etc.

This does not mean males cannot have a high fat distribution or that women cannot have a hairy back. It means that certain features are more typical to the respective sex.

How do they not fit? It does not say women are always smooth and hairless and men are all as hairy as an ape. It means males typically have more, coarser body hair. That’s it.

These features do not define ones sex, they are dictated by ones sex. I’ve already explained what sex is and it is absolutely not bimodal. A man with breasts does not develop the ability to produce ova so his sex does not change.

[–]MissDimples 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes, I am not disagreeing with you. I did not say sex is bimodal, I said what tras get wrong is sex is not bimodal, it's "sexual dimorphism" that is bimodal, and they are confusing the two.

As long as "sexual dimorphism" does not mean "men are always tall, always don't have smooth skin, always have a low saturation of fat, always have larger bones, etc", or "women are always short, always have a wider pelvis, always have a low muscle density, always have a high saturation of fat, always have less body and facial hair, etc", and only means typically there are some characteristics we see in women or men, but that these characteristics are not essences of or innate to men or women and are shared between the two sexes, then that's true and fine.

What I meant is gender essentialists or biological essentialists take "sexual dimorphism" to mean men or women always look like xyz or abc, and that's not true.

So yeah. No disagreement here. :))

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Nobody here has ever even insinuated that dimorphism means anything like that. So now you agree that we are not gender essentialists and we don’t actually argue it?

Can you pick a lane lmao

[–]MissDimples 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I thought that's what you were arguing, because that's what gender essentialists or biological essentialists argue. But realized later you were not arguing that. It was a misunderstanding. And I apologize if it was of any inconvenience to you.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Maybe instead of accusing people of arguing things they don’t, actually read what’s being said to you without automatically being combative and dismissive.

[–]MissDimples 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Okay 😊