Both: How do you feel about the High Court's decision in the Keira Bell case?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't have a citation, but I have also read that it dramatically drops after puberty. Which is to say that preventing children from going through puberty is basically denying them the chance to desist.

13 is not after puberty, though. It's right in the middle of it. I would say maybe 15 would be a likelier age to tell whether or not a child's puberty has resolved their gender dysphoria.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It does drop definitely. I feel like 15 or 16 might be better. Keira was 16 though so some people do desist after that. It’s tricky to balance. 🤷‍♀️

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Keira first experienced GD during puberty, which is common for females today. The situation - and desistance rates - of these girls and young women is entirely different to that of boys who experienced childhood GD prior to puberty.

It's also entirely different to the experience of all the boys and men who first experienced GD during or after male puberty.

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

The pro-trans convo about PBs and Keira's case is being largely shaped by grown males who now ID as trans and say they wish they had been able to take PBs when they were young. These full-grown males have no idea whatsoever what it's like to be a girl going through puberty. All their views are based on their memories and current views of what it's like to be a young male who desperately wished he could escape his sex (often largely due to being gay) or change into a female coz of AGP. The experience of these males has absolutely nothing to do with the realities of what it's like to be a young person of the female sex going through female puberty and all the accompanying biological, psychological and social baggage and burdens that female puberty - and only female puberty - brings.

Both groups suffer, but the suffering of male and female young people with GD and the reasons for it are not at all the same!

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I completely agree with everything you said. Thank you for putting it so succinctly. 😊

We need to stop treating all these different things like they are the same. For boy whose GD presents before puberty, I feel like by 15 or 16, if they are insistent despite not being affirmed, they probably will continue to persist. GD for girls or GD that begins during puberty should be treated totally differently I feel like.

It’s really worrying that the unfulfilled wishes of trans adults affect these policies. I feel very strongly that a male who presents with GD at age 8 is probably dealing with something totally different than a male who presents with GD at age 28. Same with females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, boys' and girls' experience of puberty is entirely different.

For boys, staring puberty means nocturnal emissions/wet dreams, spontaneous erections, changes to genitals, pubic and body hair, acne, smelly pits and feet, moodiness, horniness. All of those can be unpleasant and embarrassing.

But for males, puberty also means lots of jerking off and sexual pleasure. And being treated as a young man by others.

For girls, puberty principally means developing breasts and spending days each month bleeding from the vagina, often with debilitating cramps and preceded by mood swings, depression, abdominal bloating, water weight gain, extremely sore breasts. There are often pains and discomforts that go with ovulation too.

Puberty for a female also means being acutely aware that you can get pregnant, be forced to carry to term, and die in childbirth or be saddled with a child for the next two decades. This awareness creates a vulnerability in pubescent girls that most males don't seem capable of relating to - or even imagining. In the fantasies of TIMs, it never gets a mention. Coz they think female puberty is all about girls having sexy slumber parties and pillow fights.

For girls, puberty also means being set upon, harassed and preyed upon by males of all ages who see you as meat ("a piece of ass") and who take your secondary sex characteristics to mean that you are less than human and have been put on earth to serve males and satisfy their sexual desires.

Being treated as young man and young woman in society are entirely different experiences.