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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

It does drop definitely. I feel like 15 or 16 might be better. Keira was 16 though so some people do desist after that. It’s tricky to balance. 🤷‍♀️

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Keira first experienced GD during puberty, which is common for females today. The situation - and desistance rates - of these girls and young women is entirely different to that of boys who experienced childhood GD prior to puberty.

It's also entirely different to the experience of all the boys and men who first experienced GD during or after male puberty.

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

The pro-trans convo about PBs and Keira's case is being largely shaped by grown males who now ID as trans and say they wish they had been able to take PBs when they were young. These full-grown males have no idea whatsoever what it's like to be a girl going through puberty. All their views are based on their memories and current views of what it's like to be a young male who desperately wished he could escape his sex (often largely due to being gay) or change into a female coz of AGP. The experience of these males has absolutely nothing to do with the realities of what it's like to be a young person of the female sex going through female puberty and all the accompanying biological, psychological and social baggage and burdens that female puberty - and only female puberty - brings.

Both groups suffer, but the suffering of male and female young people with GD and the reasons for it are not at all the same!

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

As far as I know, puberty blockers are not needed for girls and women at all. As "female-bodied people" have no need to "stop body from irreversible changes from testosterone during puberty", while for men and boys - earlier transition will start, the more "feminine" they will looks visually and less cosmetic surgeries they will need. While woman can start transition at 50 and perfectly pass as a man, as testosterone changes are very strong and almost irreversible. Puberty blockers are much more dangerous for women's body. And testosterone is doing irreversible changes (unlike estrogen on men's body) on women's body and can lead to many health problems, increases cancer risks (unlike estrogen for men, which is mostly safe).

This means that treatment that can be good for transwomen is not working at all for transmen, and still transmen are getting same treatment as transwomen, while it is just wrong. And that bigger risks and less "reversibility" for transmen are not considered at all. Even main narrative of anti-Bell activists are all about transwomen and transwomen only.

Transwomen transition was studied for few decades by now, starting from 1930s for homosexual conversion therapy reasons up until 1980s, and from 1980s for transgender means (still often driven by homophobia, but not that much). Transmen were almost not existent, I believe transmen were 1% or less of all transgender population (today it is around 55-60% transmen and 40-45% tranwswomen). So transmen treatment was not researched as not needed one, it was happening even more rare than most rare intersex conditions (Transgenders were around 0.05% of population, and transmen were 1% of that, or 0.0005% of population). And now, when this boom is happening, transmen are just getting treatment made for "male-bodied people", and no new researches being done (at least until 2018, maybe 1 or 2 appeared today, but still not dozens of studies made about transwomen).

Interesting that even in this kind of medicine, the statistics and dynamics are staying the same as in regular medicine, even after presenting as opposite gender, - most of treatments are tested on males and then forced on females without many extra tests, and treatment for females is not even developed or tested at all. Same as in majority of medical fields.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You and I seem to generally agree on this. But regarding your comment that

While woman can start transition at 50 and perfectly pass as a man, as testosterone changes are very strong and almost irreversible.

My question is, how many women do you know or have heard about that at age 50 (or beyond) have decided to "start transition"?

There are tons of men who start transitioning in middle-age and their senior years, but hardly any women. Why is that?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The latest transition of female I know is at the age 28, and it was porn actress to become porn actor (Buck Angel).

Ellen (now Elliot) Page is 33, but seems it is just declaration, with no transition or anything.

It is mostly celebrities or famous people.

Even 20-30 years ago, almost no transmen were at all, almost all of them were celebrities, or very rare lesbians (and forced transitions of lesbians, which was sometimes practiced in USSR, and maybe other countries). Today transmen are the majority of transes. I haven't read Irreversible Damage yet, but my copy of the book should came soon, however, I can imagine what the reasoning is there for such insane increase in transitioning girls into transmen, while increase for transwomen is very gradual and among same demographics as before.

At the same time males are non-celebrities often transitioning when 30-40 years old, sometimes even when around 60 years old. I believe there even whole group called "trans widows", where wives of men who transitioned when 30+ and said to them something among the lines "man you married is dead now, I am new person and a lesbian now" (that is why word "widow" is used).

My question is

As many noted and as Tavistock data shown, most of women transitioners are gender non-conforming women, bisexual and lesbians (them combined is around 70% of all). Many of them are ones who would be "goth" or "emo" 10-15 years ago. I saw many comments from young mothers on twitter, that their 12 years old kids want to be girls, but do not want to grow up into a woman. And Tavistock data on court shown that drop rate from being GD for girls is at least 75% if they are not put on puberty blockers. So only 25% could be trans and 75% are just victims of social pressure and medical malpractice. Tavistock had no data on post-transitioned kids as well, while people who worked with post-transitioned girls and boys said that 26% of their clients after 2 years of transitioning had regrets of transitioning, with 25% more having regret but not wanting to reverse irreversible and be "ugly halfman-halfwoman". So around 51% are regreting transitioning. Which correlates with Tavistock data of drop rate as well, as it was 25% for boys and 75% for girls in last year, which is roughly 50%, but girls there more, so 51-55% looks reasonably close.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Hey, just curious, do you have links to any of that Tavistock data? I would love to read more about that.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't seems to find the original I saw, during Keira process. Here some links I've found in my history: https://twitter.com/X_Warrior_P/status/1333948915838722049 - maybe author of them know more. But it is about last year.

https://archive.is/zy6PA

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Awesome, thank you!! I'll have to do some digging.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry, didn't see this

All the Tavistock data - and lack of it - can be found in the coverage of the court case as reported by various people on Twitter, in the judgment issued by the court, as well as in extensive reports and papers by such persons and organizations as Michael Biggs, Transgender Trend, Gender HQ, Marcus Evans, Bayswater Group, BBC Newsnight and The Times (of London)... And many other sources.

To stay up to date, I'd suggest checking the feminism section of Mumsnet and following various GC women and experts on Twitter.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers-update/

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-49036145

https://www.genderhq.org/blog/2019/7/1/female-minors-are-now-74-of-patients-at-the-tavistock-gender-clinic-in-britain

https://www.transgendertrend.com/surge-referral-rates-girls-tavistock-continues-rise/

https://quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

https://gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2020/05/31/tavistock-clinic-part-one/

https://gendercriticalwoman.wordpress.com/2020/06/01/tavistock-part-two-clinical-dilemmas/

The Tavistock has just published the paper it told the court it could not provide due to COVID.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55282113

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Awesome, thank you!!

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I completely agree with everything you said. Thank you for putting it so succinctly. 😊

We need to stop treating all these different things like they are the same. For boy whose GD presents before puberty, I feel like by 15 or 16, if they are insistent despite not being affirmed, they probably will continue to persist. GD for girls or GD that begins during puberty should be treated totally differently I feel like.

It’s really worrying that the unfulfilled wishes of trans adults affect these policies. I feel very strongly that a male who presents with GD at age 8 is probably dealing with something totally different than a male who presents with GD at age 28. Same with females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, boys' and girls' experience of puberty is entirely different.

For boys, staring puberty means nocturnal emissions/wet dreams, spontaneous erections, changes to genitals, pubic and body hair, acne, smelly pits and feet, moodiness, horniness. All of those can be unpleasant and embarrassing.

But for males, puberty also means lots of jerking off and sexual pleasure. And being treated as a young man by others.

For girls, puberty principally means developing breasts and spending days each month bleeding from the vagina, often with debilitating cramps and preceded by mood swings, depression, abdominal bloating, water weight gain, extremely sore breasts. There are often pains and discomforts that go with ovulation too.

Puberty for a female also means being acutely aware that you can get pregnant, be forced to carry to term, and die in childbirth or be saddled with a child for the next two decades. This awareness creates a vulnerability in pubescent girls that most males don't seem capable of relating to - or even imagining. In the fantasies of TIMs, it never gets a mention. Coz they think female puberty is all about girls having sexy slumber parties and pillow fights.

For girls, puberty also means being set upon, harassed and preyed upon by males of all ages who see you as meat ("a piece of ass") and who take your secondary sex characteristics to mean that you are less than human and have been put on earth to serve males and satisfy their sexual desires.

Being treated as young man and young woman in society are entirely different experiences.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is definitely one of those areas where we need research into differences between boys and girls and also childhood dysphoria vs. rapid adolescent onset.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

In the Tavistock report from 2016, drop rate was around 90.3% of kids. In Keira Bell case they showed numbers of 25% for boys and 75% for girls. Tavistok numbers for lesbian and bisexual women were horrifying too - around 40% of girls transitioned with reasoning "I like girls", at least 950 of girls under Tavistok treatment to become transmen right now were butch lesbians. More than half of transitioned boys and a bit less than half of transitioned girls had parents (mostly mothers) with borderline personality disorders and "control freak" attitude.

In medicine even 1-5% is too huge of a number. This just means that current practice is completely wrong and must be improved a lot more, not "leave same practice, just move it from 14 years to 18 years". And must be improved and researched for transmen and transwomen separately, as numbers seems to be very different for them, and they both are ongoing same practices and treatment. And it seems it helps boys more than it helps girls (most detransitioners are females, most suicide attempts are done by transitioned females), and that it detects boys with GD much better than girls.

15-16

Puberty can start late and last long, in girls puberty ends earlier than in boys, but effects of it are lasting longer (breasts can be growing up until age of 20), while boys have more "stable" puberty with much smaller variations when it beings or ends. Plus men's sexuality is much easier to understand, men's body is accepted in most shapes and forms, and it is more researched and more visible everywhere, while women's sexuality is under researched and almost not shown anywhere, same with women's body, which is shamed and sexualized a lot (even menstruation advertisemens are getting banned for being "gross", if they are showing how to use the product). So my rulling would be something like - for boys it is safe at around 16-17 years age, maybe 18, and for girls it should be 20-22 at least.

And why I, a gay man, out of all people, know and care about all this things more than most? I was helping gay men couple to adopt a girl and was a nurse (nanny) to her from 4-5 up to 15 years, helping with her first periods and puberty, but it is just bothers me, that situation is like that, - that seems like majority of people just don't care about girls and young women at all (and I am not even speaking about majority of world, where women don't have any rights, I am speaking about more civilized parts of the world). At least it looks like this.

Actually, as I mentioned nursing, that is another my complain, to be able to take care about the girl - there were too few info about it in most places. And mostly focused on psychological factors. I was reading books for young mother's, comming to some mother's meetings (only on ones women were comfortable to speak with a man there, I was saying instantly I am a gay, to make them feel more comfortable too, and I was not judgemental at all about any of their statements, and seems like fathers were little to know about girls development), and asking chidlbirth nurses and other medical staff about raisign a girl "as a single parent". I found that A LOT is missing from books and guidelines, even today in the internet it is very hard to find anything about how to take care of kids after childbirth (on ukrainian and russian, on russian there a bit more info, but most of youth nowadays don't know russian very well), especially about raising girls. Almost all info is either very vague or described with innuendos to not be "gross" or "sexualized" (why menstruation is either "dirty" or "sexualized" in society's mind? It is just a normal process that is happening for 50% of population every 20-30 days, why we can talk about peeing, pooping, masturbating, but not about periods?), so most experience and knowledge is coming from women who already gave birth and raised one or few kids, not from other sources. It is either "you learn it on your own, through mistakes" or "ask someone who already did mistakes and learned". And what to do in countries with worse healthcare system (including countries with "good" healthcare systems like Saudi Arabia or Iran, as their healthcare system is only good for men, and almost non-existent for women), where women have less rights? I am always complaining about it, and many mothers are "yeah, it is true, but what we can do?", which makes me upset that society is like this right now.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

So much this.

My sister is pregnant and afraid to give birth, because she knows nothing about taking care of kid, and guides in the internet are very confusing, and she is too afraid to ask her friends who already gave birth about what to do, as she afraid to be seen as too invasive or rude, and some questions she is too shy to ask. You, as a man, seems missed part that women often tought to be shy and not talk much about body-related topics to be "a good girl" - this have huge part in this all as well. So she will try asking childbirth nurse and doctors about this, especially about newly born child - when to feed, how to feed, what to do in general, etc.

[–]Elvira95 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Female or male baby? I envy the little creature who will have the coolest aunt in the world :D It's bit sad I will never be an aunt. I mean, being mother I don't care, but I could have beeen the cool gaming aunt :(

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Boy. And I hate little kids, lol. Maybe in 15 years he grow up that will be good, but not before. And we are leaking out of DM, honey.

[–]Elvira95 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would prefer a niece. You know, feminism self and all lol But boy is nice too. You will play videogame together. Wait until he is a teen, and then he will ask you about conquering girls and videogames. It's cool

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know I don't like interracting with people. And we are offtopic now.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

VioletRemi, there's no reason for your sister to feel so in the dark. There are tons of great childrearing books out there. Also, I recommend the Gesell books on child development from Yale University: they're slim volumes that tell what's going on developmentally in each year of a child's life, year by year. I found them enormously useful.

Also, most mums - and dads - love to be asked to share experiences and advice about birth and raising children.

If your sister speaks English, send her to Mumsnet. Tons of advice and support there.

Good luck.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

She know neither English nor Russian, so can't really read any of those books. Her phone is broken, so she is coming to me to search stuff in internet mostly, and new phone she is not buying yet, as she is collecting money to buy baby stroller (it cost around 3-5 monthly incomes, and she is not working due to pregnancy and lockdown, just doing manicure at home and her husband is working, but work is not always there, as because of lockdown there too few of orders), and I am gifting her baby cot.

Mother is giving her advices, especially what to do right after birth, but sister is mostly saying "you gave birth to us in USSR, when even diapers/pampers were not existing here, now everything is completely different, you are no help in modern world!". She is still listening to her, tho, just annoyed that can't find anything "more modern" and in details, as she has literally no idea what to do with baby in first few months.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I was reading books for young mother's, comming to some mother's meetings (only on ones women were comfortable to speak with a man there, I was saying instantly I am a gay, to make them feel more comfortable too, and I was not judgemental at all about any of their statements,

Sorry, you as a male working as a child carer going to mothers' meetings was entirely inappropriate.

You were invading the space of these women, then you employed the fact that you're gay "to make them more comfortable." WTF? You being gay doesn't make you an honorary mother or honorary woman. None of those women probably gave a fuck about who you like to have sex with. They cared that you were a male horning in on an explicitly female group. If they seemed polite and accepting, it was probably coz their female socialization trained them to respond to male intrusion with smiles and outwardly accommodating behavior. Coz of fear. Inwardly, I bet they were seething.

I cannot imagine a woman who isn't a mother invading this group as you did. Or any older women who are mothers either. I'm a mother whose kids are grown, and I can't imagine a situation in which I or any other mother of older or grown children would ever see fit to intrude into a group for mothers of young children the way you did. The gall!

Now you're bragging that in response to the reactions of these mothers to your interloping into their group expressly for mothers

I was not judgemental at all about any of their statements

Well, bully for you. You sound like Columbus, Cortez, Andrew Jackson. Talk about MANifest destiny.

There are lots of books about baby & child care and early childhood development written by men. In fact, many of the biggest names in these fields are men: Gesell, Piaget, Spock, Brazelton, Ferber. If you want to discuss child care with other men, start your own group. Don't intrude upon groups set up by and for mothers!

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, it was common practice for single fathers to be invited or to come on their own into mother's meetings or joing mother's groups. Hospitals were orgainizing such events and hosting such groups only for mothers, while fathers rarely had any groups, and mostly those were their own created groups, and in general about more grown up children. It was not considered as normal for fathers to spend a lot of time with their kids, especially when country was very poor after USSR disbanding, and "man must work and bring money, woman take care of kids" was very common mindset (especially because majority of jobs were physically hard ones). And I needed courses for 2+ years old kids, as mentioned gay couple adopted 3 years old girl with health issues, who was left by father after mother have died, and no one wanted to adopt her for year or so. Maybe in very big cities there were father's groups organized for single fathers of very young children, but I had no ability to go there, and was not aware of one. It was right after USSR fell down and adopting laws were changed, anti-homosexual laws were removed (later were tries to return them, but with protests we were able stop it from happening), I was young back then - around 20 years old. We all were men and did not know how to raise a girl, but I did remembered accident from school, when I was around 10 years old, girl-classmate (she was raised by a single father) run into class with hands in blood and screamed that she is dying, in reality it was just her first menstruation and father not prepared her for that. So I know that girls' growing up and puberty is very different for boys, so I needed to learn to help them (especially later, when they both had a job during day, and I had night shifts - it was very common to leave your kid from age 4 until 10-12 years on relatives or friends during that time, as goverment was not paying for kids yet, incom was very low, was not possible to hire nanny, so to live both parents needed to work. I myself grown up with my aunt or granny mostly, as they worked 1/1 work/free shifts).

Well, bully for you.

I specified, because single fathers were often commenting on mother's experiences with sexist stuff. At least out of few I've met on such mother's meetings only one did not commented. Many came to 1-2 meetings and were "now I know all" and stopped course.

Sexuality actually meant a lot as well, as most single fathers were very young like me as well, and they often were doing sexualized comments about breastfeeding or in general staring at boobs. So even thought homophobia was still big, women just felt more comfortable with me being "freak who don't like women", so they were acting less restricted with me, than when other single fathers were present. And I was not coming at meetings for newborns as well.

About books - we only had here few soviet books, but they were mostly focused on psychiology and how to grow girl as a girl and boy as a boy, not on things like what to do at all with kid, when to feed, what to do when kid is crying, when change windings (there were no pampers or anything like that, just soft cloth on baby and oilcloth on bed), how to tell about menstruation (especially if you are a man), and so on. Most foreighn books were not translated, or if translated - illegaly and it was not too easy to get them. There were no internet as well, TV had literally 2 channels, cable TV was only starting appearing.

About girl, she is almost 30 years old now, married on a decent man, works as an aircraft ingeneer in Kyiv, planning to have a kid in decent future, she have twice as big income than her husband, so childcare leave he will take instead of her (it is paid by goverment and lasts for 3 years, organisation must pay 6 months of income for parent taking childcare leave, and must hold spot on a job). She is still calling me either "Uncle Nanny" or "Mister Nanny" (as in that american comedy with Hulk Hogan).

And yes, I understand your anger, but it was not something out of ordinary back then in post-USSR. And I understand myself, that it is not very good way to do things, but I was young there, and I am almost certain, I would not be able to get any fathers groups with knowledge that I needed. It is my bad, that I did not thought that in other countries everything was much more civilized, and English speaking countries had much more literature and services as well. I once blamed you that "not all world is UK and USA", and now myself is making the very same mistake myself. My apologies.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, it was common practice for single fathers to be invited or to come on their own into mother's meetings or joing mother's groups.

Please provide the documentation that shows groups of new mothers and mothers of young children of their own volition were inviting men into their support groups whenever the time in history and wherever country on earth you are speaking of.

Also, why do you keep citing the experiences of single fathers? You're not a single father, are you? My understanding from what you said is that you were a young male child carer who invaded support groups for mothers of young children.

I have no problem with the idea of you or other men seeking out women for child-rearing advice. I don't think any woman would have a problem with this. I have had child-rearing convos with many men. Some of the child-rearing experts I learned the most from - Spock, Gessell, Brazelton, Ferber - were men. My children's pediatricians were men. Some of their most knowledgable nursery, kindergarten and early education teachers were men.

What I have a problem with is you thinking that coz there were no fathers' groups or male childcarers' groups where you lived it was your right to horn in on groups specifically for mothers. And you rationalizing this by telling yourself that coz you're gay and don't get sexually aroused by breastfeeding, this meant none of the women in those groups you invaded could possibly have felt discomfort with your presence there. Talk about projection and colonization! I have many gay male friends I have shared intimate details of my life with, and some of whom have worked in child care; still, if any of them had shown up at any of the new mothers' groups or breastfeeding support groups I once went to, I would've been appalled by their chutzpah - and said get the hell out.

It was not considered as normal for fathers to spend a lot of time with their kids, especially when country was very poor after USSR disbanding

So what? Why does that give you the right to horn in on mother's groups?

Also, what countries specifically are you speaking of? You are so cagey about where you're coming from, so to speak, that I get the sense you are constantly moving the goalposts.

You seem to think that no one here has any idea of how geographically and culturally vast and varied the countries that were in the Soviet sphere that where affected when the USSR and the Berlin Wall collapsed. That we'd not know that someone who grew up in Siberia would have had a totally different experience to someone from Srebrenica.

Please be aware that to be understood on a worldwide internet forum where no one can see you or hear your native tongue or accent, you've got to give an indication of what your age is and what country (or longitude & latitude) you're from. You seem to be doing to the former Soviet sphere countries what people do to all of the states and territories within US: pretend that they are all one and the same and entirely homogenous.