Discuss with just facts?

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

  1. I agree that there are ways to make things fair and equal- though I don’t think TW want fair and equal. They seem to want special consideration masked as equality. Idk what you mean by split quotas.

  2. I disagree. I think it’s safer for TW, and does nothing for women. It can make some women feel unsafe and uncomfortable. And unless the rules are changed, as it stands it does seem like any male can claim an identity that allows them access to female spaces. We (well, not “we” but some) are also teaching females not to even take note of males in these spaces, which I think is a bad thing.

  3. Saying that TW aren’t female is not related to emotion. Allowing a male to participate in a female specific thing is literally taking an opportunity from a female when the opportunity was designated for a female. They are excluded because they aren’t the sex the program was meant to offer an opportunity for. Saying that they shouldn’t be excluded is coming from emotion. It’s just a fact that TW aren’t female.

  4. It’s not about allowing lol. TW aren’t female. Lesbians are female. Transmen aren’t male. Gay men are male. This is just a fact.

  5. I have no gender identity but I know what gender I am and I know my gender solely because I know my sex.

  6. Can you cite this?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. I mean having diversity incentives for trans women parallel with natal women rather than shared categorization.

  2. It is much safer for trans women and not much more dangerous for natal women. Hence overall safety improves. Their could be some standards of access or some such but again single occupancy is the best option from my perspective anyway.

  3. Why is female the relevant category in areas other than sport? As opposed to womanhood. Why ought trans men be included in women’s programs that would harm them by exposure at least while trans women should be excluded?

  4. I and may others wouldn’t use your definitions. I’m not a lesbian but a women trans or not who is only attracted to women trans or not is a lesbian to me. Your definition has men being lesbians and women attracted to men being lesbians which makes no sense to me. Why should your definition control and not mine?

  5. I don’t believe your logic holds. My gender is in fact the exact opposite of my sex as in most trans people. So it’s not a matter of gender simply following sex. Otherwise trans people wouldn’t exist.

  6. I’m on mobile so I don’t recall what this is asking about. Im assuming I don’t have a ready citation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

  1. Aaah. I agree with that of you mean trans people should have opportunities and representation designated specifically for them.

  2. Disagree. Overall women are safer if any and all males are excluded from female spaces. I agree single occupancy is best. I also personally agree that there could be a standard of access (for me it’s bottom surgery) however I don’t know that I have the right to say that and dismiss how other females may feel. If a female says she feels uncomfortable or unsafe with any male, regardless of GRS or identity, being in her space, I feel like I have to respect her and her sense of safety. I don’t think I have a right to say what terms allow a male access to a female space. I think all females (or at least like 90% or more) would need to agree and all safety concerns would need to be addressed and dealt with. Also- we have no way of monitoring things to ensure that only males who meet that standard of access are entering those spaces. So to me it’s best to keep things sex based, and accept that a passing TW will slip through.

  3. Womanhood is female. Only females experience womanhood. A passing TW experiences life as a male who is perceived as a woman- if people don’t know they’re trans. It’s not the same at all. A non passing TW doesn’t even experience that. Transmen don’t have to participate in female specific opportunities. They should have the option because they are female. This is what I’m saying- these are opportunities for the female sex. That’s it. If you aren’t a female, you have no right to the programs. TW should be excluded because they are the opposite sex. That’s the full reason imo

  4. This is exactly why I said fact based answers only. It is not a fact that TW are women and TM are men. My definition (it’s not even mine, it’s the actual definition) doesn’t have men being lesbians, it’s literally saying this is impossible. It doesn’t have women attracted to men being lesbians. It’s literally saying that’s also impossible.

  5. I’m not seeing a fact based answer here. So I think it’s your logic that doesn’t hold. You haven’t presented an explanation that factually shows how a trans persons gender identity is their actual gender or how gender identity equals gender. Another user has very clearly explained why this isn’t the case, imo

  6. I’m asking you to cite the claims you made about violence against trans people.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

however I don’t know that I have the right to say that and dismiss how other females may feel. If a female says she feels uncomfortable or unsafe with any male, regardless of GRS or identity,

I would not feel comfortable with any male in such spaces. When I was on a walk with my transsexual friend, who I am very sure is safe (homosexual one, 20+ years after surgery, etc) - I was still feeling uncomfortable, and either waiting until they finished and only then going to the toilet, or asking them to wait until I finished, gladly they were respecting my request (I still would prefer to enter second). Especially when I am on my period, or have some other issues with my body due to my health conditions - I will just feel very-very uncomfortable when someone who can't understand my struggle and can poses any potential threat or make fun of me or find disgusting what I am doing (like imagine changing your cup - go to cubicle, then go out of it and wash it out from blood, then go back to cubicle - and do this all while there male is present and watching it. Or imagine having miscarriage or cramps... I just can't, really, urgh). Especially in modern society, which removes tampon advertisements for showing periods from TV, because it is considered either "too gross" or "sexual". Menstruation stigma and taboo is way too powerful in any society in the world for now. I don't know how many more years or decades we need so society and men especially realise it is same as just breathing, or pee'ing, or anything, it is normal and natural, it is happening for dozen of years starting from when we are 10 years old and repeats monthly. There nothing sexual, gross or dirty in it.