QT: What happens when another culture's idea of gender does not align with your idea of gender?

submitted by FlanJam from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Their beliefs about gender control their gender mine controls mine. If they want to say I’m not who I am, I’ll consider them rude. If they believe something about me but don’t voice it, it’s none of my business.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But your notion that gender means whatever you want is not consistent with most cultures, or most people's ideas on gender. You can either accept that your own personal beliefs about gender are invalid in their eyes, which means you will also accept the view of you that is in line with their beliefs, or you can disagree and make them treat you in line with your own views, which is inconsistent with "everyone's opinion is equally valid". You cannot have both, just as I cannot tell a white supremacist that they can continue being racist as long as they don't see black people as inferior, or tell a scientist they can keep advocating evolution as long as they advocate Creationism as equally valid. When you silence a person and make them accept only your own view as the proper one, or make them for all intents and purposes pretend that your view is the only one while mercifully letting them have a view that disagrees as long as they don't voice it, that does not count as accepting all views equally, not by a long shot.

How can you say you aren't pushing beliefs onto people if you consider it bad to voice their belief and expect them to agree with your idea on gender (or have to pretend that they do) in order to be valid? You can share your beliefs on gender freely and they have to pretend that they believe it out of politeness, while they themselves can't even state what they think? The idea that gender mustn't be questioned and that doing so is an attack IS your belief and silencing someone unless they share your views means you do not accept their view on gender.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

But your notion that gender means whatever you want is not consistent with most cultures, or most people's ideas on gender.

Citation needed. Trans people are present worldwide and in most places have more protections that we do in the US.

How can you say you aren't pushing beliefs onto people if you consider it bad to voice their belief and expect them to agree with your idea on gender

They don’t have to agree with me. I expect them not to interfere with my life and not harass me. I do the same. When I get misgendered at work, I just ignore it unless it is harassment level or from a boss. I’m not giving lectures in the workplace, they shouldn’t either.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Citation needed.

Are you actually going to argue that the world at large believes that men and women are a fictional thing that's just a matter of what pronoun you decide to use? Why is there a push for trans rights then? How can you claim victimisation and oppression and at the same time insist that everyone is already on your side? As a feminist, I cannot imagine fighting the patriarchy while at the same time claiming that everyone understands women are equal and there is no problem. Why do trans activists keep doing this?

They don’t have to agree with me.

And yet you expect them to see trans people as whatever trans people say, or else they're being rude and should not state their views. Is "They don't have to agree, they should just be obliged to pretend that they agree to make me feel better, while I don't have to do the same" supposed to be an improvement?

I expect them not to interfere with my life and not harass me.

By labelling a lack of belief in your notion of gender as harassment and demanding their silence unless they (pretend to) agree with you, you are pushing your beliefs. Again, you cannot claim to be tolerant of all the views when your view takes precedent and has to be respected, and all the other views are silenced for being offensive. I am a feminist, and I oppose patriarchal ideology because it goes against human rights. I don't pretend that the patriarchy is okay and valid and it's all fine as long as it's silenced and doesn't hate women, I consider it wrong because it's damaging to society and human rights.

I’m not giving lectures in the workplace, they shouldn’t either.

And yet people can get fired for not pandering to trans people and telling them what they want to hear. If this was just a bunch of people asking others to call them whatever comes to their mind, we wouldn't be having these issues. Instead, the mere refusal to believe in this specific damaging notion of gender is labelled harassment. Do you see an issue with that?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And yet people can get fired for not pandering to trans people and telling them what they want to hear.

And I could just as easily be fired for arguing for trans rights. Leave me alone if you don’t like trans people and I’ll stay clear as I can. That society. Just letting people harass us with no recourse isn’t parity.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You keep avoiding addressing any points that stomp on what you have said. Does that mean you understand you were wrong?

And I could just as easily be fired for arguing for trans rights.

I thought everyone was on your side. Why would you be fired for arguing something everyone agrees with?

Leave me alone if you don’t like trans people and I’ll stay clear as I can.

Except I need to pretend men are women and their misogyny counts as female behaviour, or I get fired. No, sorry, that does not count as staying away. Stop faking this "Let's all get along and agree to disagree" act while rolling along with punishments for anyone who doesn't take your opinion as fact.

Just letting people harass us with no recourse isn’t parity.

People not believing in misogynistic ideologies is not harassment. If you believe it is, you are free to argue why (which I'm sure will just come down to the thought-stopping "I'll feel bad so you better do what I say" and "I identify as a racist", but hey, it's worth a shot). But don't fake some idea of tolerance when you are very much clear on what the "wrong" ideology is and support silencing and punishing it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You keep avoiding addressing any points that stomp on what you have said. Does that mean you understand you were wrong?

For real? That’s what you think has happened here. Jesus how much mescaline gave you taken today?

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If a person provides an argument, and it gets dismantled with a counter-argument, and they are unable to respond, they have failed to argue their point. The assumption is that they admit defeat in face of an argument that they are unable to beat.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You haven’t dismantled anything. What a joke.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you believe I am wrong, you are free to provide counterpoints to all the counterarguments that have defeated your own statements. If not, we can conclude you've been proven wrong and end it here.