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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

  1. That doesn’t really answer anything. I’m saying what makes a male saying they identify as a female something that they can even definitively know themselves? I understand that identity is personal- but femaleness or womanhood isn’t really a personal thing, it’s a state of being. So how can someone declare that they understand a literal opposite state of being well enough to identify into it? Feeling out of place in your body for whatever reason doesn’t (imo) mean that you have a sense of truly understanding a different type of body. And womanhood/femaleness is not a state of mind.

  2. So are you saying that with dysphoric patients, they skip all other issues they may have and focus on treating the dysphoria first? So for example, someone is dysphoric, has add/adhd, and bipolar disorder. Instead of treating the adhd and bipolar disorder first, it is set aside and dysphoria is dealt with first? So we don’t know if curing or dealing with any other mental disorders or past trauma etc could help with the dysphoria? (I’m not trying to make a point, this is honestly something I’ve been trying to understand for a while)

  3. So are you saying that you identify as a woman because you prefer the social constraints aced on women over the ones placed on males? (In addition you the discomfort you feel with being male and being referred to with male terminology?) and (please don’t get upset, again I’m trying to understand) does that mean that you identify more with the social concept of womanhood and what it means from your understanding/perspective, rather than what a female may consider womanhood to be, or what it literally/technically/definitively means to be a woman?

  4. How is identifying as something you are the literal opposite of accurate? This is what’s confusing to me- I don’t emotionally identify with anything I am, but I know I’m black, I know I’m American, I know I’m a woman. Because I fit the definitions of all of those words and it is biologically, legally, and physically etc true and accurate. I agree that when it fits facts, you are what your mind says you are- but if it’s categorically untrue, I don’t know that I believe you are something because you’re mind says it’s so. A severely mentally ill person with no diagnosis is still mentally ill, even if they don’t know it. A person who thinks they are fully white, but is mixed race and doesn’t know, will identify as white but still not be. There are other examples, but like- if Rachel Dolezal (the often used example) thinks she’s black, truly fully internally identifies as a black woman, how so that not true but it’s true for people with gender dysphoria? I used her because Despite believing she’s black, she took multiple steps to present herself as a black woman, because she knew she didn’t appear as one naturally. There doesn’t have to be delusion to incorrectly identify as something.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

  1. And I disagree. Fundamentally someone’s identity is their own so it’s not for me to decide who you are or you to decide who I am. I just think we fundamentally disagree here.

2 No. treat all in tandem. I’m just saying Don’t ignore dysphoria and treat other things. The dysphoria needs addressed as well

  1. It’s about the body most but ultimately it’s a combination of many things. It’s possible (though I doubt it) that I would identify as simply trans absent stigma or othering Beyond the binary roles. I can’t know. It feels like the best option on the whole as I’ve thought it thorugh if that makes sense.

  2. I don’t think woman is the opposite of male. That’s the core difference. I’m not saying I’m literally female. I’m saying I’m a woman because that makes the most sense and feels right for the way I am and the way I live. I think race is distinct since it’s, like sex, simple fact. But gender isn’t the same thing. Again I just thing we are working from fundamentally different definitions.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. What happens when one person’s sense of identity impacts other people? Or when one person’s sense of identity conflicts with the identity of others? How are they both accurate and true?

  2. Is it at all possible that dealing with the other issues first may help the dysphoria? If someone has sexual trauma for example, could dealing with and finding a way of treating that trauma possibly alleviate dysphoria?

  3. I guess I feel like I understand gender dysphoria leading to identifying as trans, but not the opposite sex/gender. Like- I can understand the idea of having dysphoria and wanting to transition and present physically as the opposite sex, what I don’t get is how that leads to identifying and claiming the “title” of woman/man I feel like the life experiences of a TW differ from that of a woman, and the life experiences of a tm differ from that of a man. So to me, a transwoman would be identifying as a man who has altered their appearance to resemble a woman, but would still just simply not be able to understand womanhood in a real way. Again, I’m not trying to argue or insult you, I’m just trying to articulate my thoughts. I just haven’t seen an argument for woman not being associated with being female that has made sense to me personally. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of “the woman gender”, and I haven’t been presented with a definition that doesn’t directly associate woman with female that makes sense. I agree that we are working from fundamentally different definitions, my issue is that only one of our definitions is universally understood. And that, any transwoman to every have existed had to figure out their identity with the universal understanding of “woman” yet somehow, they’ve changed that definition. Meaning, every step a TW takes to transition is a step to appear to have the female form. The female form is sexed, not gendered. It’s literally cross sex hormones, not cross gender, it’s replicating sexed feautures, not gendered. So how do we now say that woman is not attached to female, when female sex characteristics (not gendered characteristics) are what are being replicated? I guess I mean to say that, I struggle with seeing that TW are aware that they are altering themselves to appear female, the concern is “passing”- which doesn’t mean pass as a woman, it means pass as female, but then they detach woman from female. If males can be women, the only reason to transition is to alleviate dysphoria. Passing shouldn’t be a factor or concern, a TW would be a woman already, from birth (and there’d be a way of seeing that, through brain scans or something), and maybe need to transition to alleviate the discomfort, but I feel it’s contradictory to remove the idea of woman being female, but still seek a female form. What I’m saying is, to me, it’s either trans people are the sex/gender they claim from birth in some way we haven’t figured out yet, or they are people with dysphoria. I don’t see how it can be both.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Number 3 is a really good point. I don’t think you can connect being dysphoric to being a woman or man because of that. Growing up, for me, I believed I was really supposed to be a girl or that I was one inside because of how I was, but beliefs like that don’t really make sense or rely on sexist stereotypes (unless we actually found out it was in the brain or something, but there isn’t evidence that that is real). I don’t know if the dysphoria with my body would have existed the same without that because I can’t know what that would be like since that is how I felt. I feel like if someone says TWAW they have to believe some version of that because dysphoria wouldn’t make someone a woman.

Woman being tied to female the way trans people use it makes sense to me. I feel like if it wasn’t part of that they wouldn’t want the word to begin with and that’s why the TWAW people want to come for female too. Woman doesn’t make sense without it and if TWAW people managed to change it to just mean an identity, I feel like it would actually be really self-defeating for them. I don’t know if that makes sense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes perfect sense. Thank you.