Broke Liberals

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[–]Chipit 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

A lot of what determines your political orientation is biological temperament far more than people realize. Leftists are high in a trait called Openness, which is one of the big five personality traits. It's associated with interest in abstraction, interest in aesthetics. It's the best predictor of leftist political leanings and they're low in Conscientiousness which is dutifulness and orderliness in particular. Whereas conservatives are the opposite. They're high in Conscientiousness - dutiful and orderly - and they're low in Openness and that makes them really good at running things, building, and saving money. On the other hand if you love constant novelty it's going to be hard to stop spending money. What, you should stop yourself from feeling good right now?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Thanks. If only it were that simple. More about partisan values here:

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2019/10/10/the-partisan-landscape-and-views-of-the-parties/

Another problem is the polarization of the discourse, which helps the most aggressive party.

My main concern is that 'conservatism' (Eg. Eisenhower conservatism) is dead in the US, and that Radical Republicans (and some Dems) have made the US government much more of a profit-making venture, not seen since c. 1900. They're gleaning the 99%.

[–]Chipit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Uh...you know that the Republican party despises most of the American people, right? The Romney wing has much more in common with the Democrats and would be fine with coming in a perpetual second place as long as they got a seat at the table. Pew Research are confirmed Trump-haters and structure their questions appropriately, which makes their results worthless.

Of course we can't do that "we're all Americans here" with the left because the left utterly despises anything painted red, white and blue. We are The Other to them. Here's a great essay that lays it out better than I could: http://archive.is/QRJ6m

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Thank you for this. Trying to understand the article and other approaches of the Slate Star Codex takes a while, especially because the essay and other associated essays never seem to develop explicit axioms. There is just a continuation of arguments. Among the main points I could grasp, there were some issues that remind me of my reading of Tzvetan Todorov's arguments in the 'National Review' in the 1980s, regarding nationalism, totalitarianism &c. I also located a favorable assessment here: https://reason.com/2021/02/15/what-the-new-york-times-hit-piece-on-slate-star-codex-says-about-media-gatekeeping/ I'll keep looking. I just wish the author were more explicit and organized. Regarding the 'outgroup', I agree with some of the points about its use as an excuse for some. Traditional terminology for this - by Foucault and others - is to call this outgroup the "other". So if I agree with any of the points about the outgroup, its that the ingroup should be open to its inclusion and the inclusion of the 'other', though without discriminating against the ingroup.

[–]Chipit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

That isn't what happens, though. The American left utterly hates the right because the right is The Other. That's the source of polarization and why we have so many problems.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The 'other' I (and Foucault &c) refer to are the marginalized, under-represented, foreign, alien &c. Yes, Tump supporters are a minority, though in terms of race, they're part of the majority. They're normally not considered the 'other' by the left, or by themselves. They are the 'freedom fighters' who want to protect the predominantly white "ingroup" and would not see themselves as part of the "outgroup" which are recent immigrants, blacks, hispanics, LGBTQ+, liberals, commies, kikes, Chinese, &c. That's at least how I've seen the MAGA approaches. They think they're making America American, when in fact every policy and approach during the past 4 years was specifically anti-American. Now one can start to see America become American again.

[–]Chipit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The 'other' I (and Foucault &c) refer to are the marginalized, under-represented, foreign, alien &c.

Those are the left's ingroups - i.e. the right's outgroups. It's all explained in that essay.

They're normally not considered the 'other' by the left

Sure they are. Why do you think the left allied with Islam after 9/11? Makes perfect sense.

They think they're making America American, when in fact every policy and approach during the past 4 years was specifically anti-American.

LOL you're doing it right now. Treating your fellow Americans as The Other.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks - but all of this is remarkably oversimplified.

If for example I say an executive order by Trump is UnAmerican or Anti-American, my reference can be to American tradition, rather than to assumptions of an ingroup or outgroup. This isn't "othering" Trump (for exmample), but notes that the policy is itself at odds with our National Identity. Indeed, the policy threatens to disenfranchise many in the US, in that case. This is not about the person, but about the destruction of something essential to the 99%. Would a policy be part of an outgroup? No, seems not. Also this:

the left allied with Islam after 9/11

This is absolutely false. It's disinformation.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What the fuck? The left absolutely took Islam's side after 9/11. I don't even think this is remotely controversial. Blame America, remember? The little Eichmanns? They have a common enemy: western culture.

OK present some examples of the left resisting Islam. Remember when they deployed themselves as human shields in Iraq?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

left absolutely took Islam's side after 9/11

I am sorry to disagree - but there is absolutely no evidence for this. Do you remember 9/11 and the responses to it? No, the "left" certainly did not side with Islam. Perhaps you want to say that there were concerns from the "left" that the US not engage in a war with Iraq, and should instead focus on Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. As we know, people in these latter countries were responsible for the attack, which was not concected with anyone in Iraq. Mossad arranged the misleading photos and other materials that committed the US in Iraq. Cheney was behind much of it, and it received bi-partisan support.

[–]copenseethe 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That makes sense. It would explain why people that create quality art, whether visual arts, theater or music, tend to be left leaning politically. Art created by conservatives tends to be crappy and low-brow IMO.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

See? There's the sneering contempt I was talking about. Thanks for the backup!

[–]copenseethe 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wasn't trying to be hostile. I am politically conservative but have noticed that there is less quality art coming from right wing artists.

[–]Comatoast 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Any artist smart enough wouldn't declare their political affiliations if they were right wing, not these days. I wouldn't know if I've ever seen recent artby anyone right leaning, come to think of it.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's because of personality traits that predispose some people to some talents and some to others.

Can you even name a right wing artist? Such a person would be unemployable and likely attacked on sight at any gathering of artists.