PLEASE READ: This is what happened yesterday and why. It was a classic Psy-Op against the American people. However, these Psy-Ops are totally preventable if we can learn the lessons from this one.

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[–]AcceleratedWallops 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Interesting post. Responding as someone who you would consider far-left:

conservative values

How about we start by defining what these are? Because in modern times, it seems to be "whatever the left doesn't like." And when I ask individuals this question, the answers usually either 1) seem pretty fucking left to me, or 2) are not at all what Republican/conservative politicians are doing or have expressed desire to do. And then it becomes a "no true scotsman" shitstorm conversation that gets nowhere.

Something I also find difficult - separating conservatism from Republicanism. No one seems to have a clear answer, other than "Republicanism is the aspects I don't like."

without providing any positive and constructive solutions

Another bit I find puzzling -- one of the central tenets of modern conservatism is "if we ignore a problem long enough, it won't be a problem anymore." Conservatives are the opposition party. It's in the name -- progressives present solutions (attempt to make progress) and conservatives move to conserve the status quo and block the changes. This often seems to be a mindset of "don't fix it if it ain't broke", "the cure will be worse than the disease", or the aforementioned "just ignore it" as reasons to just keep doing the same stuff we've been doing.

So it's interesting that you seem interested in actually, you know, improving things. 🙂

One small correction:

the Left controls the media

The neoliberals control the media. Don't forget that they shit all over Bernie.

[–]slushpilot 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Left/right is made-up and nobody can agree on what it means day by day.

We absolutely need dialogue and reasoned opposition for democracies to function, but it's not black & white. It's idiotic to get entrenched on one side.

Spending taxes on national defense = right-wing conservatism Spending taxes on national medicine = left-wing socialism

I don't know how to get people to start seeing through the false dichotomy. I've tried pointing out paradoxes and double-standards like this, and I get told it's "whataboutism". It's not "carrying water" for "fascism" or "communism" or whatever extreme rhetoric you prefer just because you dare point out hypocrisy.

[–]Aureus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

Spending taxes on national defense = right-wing conservatism Spending taxes on national medicine = left-wing socialism

To be fair, I think a lot of people are waking up to this and rejecting it.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Cheers, mate.

I think 'Conservatives' and 'Republicanism' are terms that refer mainly to Eisenhower conservatism, which was meant to reduce spending associated with FDR's New Deal.

Since the time of Reagan, Republicans have become the "Radical Party," distributing as much as possible to the 1% whilst the 99% have remained stagnant or suffered so much that both members of the household must work multiple part-time jobs. Young people today should hate these fuckers more than anything.

[–]Aureus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In 2016, who seemed more like the "change" candidate, and who seemed more like the "establishment" candidate?

This might give you a hint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLfvXjKMwtI

In 2020, which candidate gave a speech to wealthy donors promising "nothing would fundamentally change" under his presidency?

[–]Aureus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was going to write a long response to this, but I'll keep it simple.

And when I ask individuals this question, the answers usually either 1) seem pretty fucking left to me, or 2) are not at all what Republican/conservative politicians are doing or have expressed desire to do.

I don't see laissez-faire economics as bedrock-foundational to conservatism. So if you asked me what conservative values are, you might hear a "pretty left" answer in terms of economics.

The real divide, and the reason why the website you're using exists at all, is the difference in cultural values.

If you asked average Democrats and Republicans about their economic values, you probably wouldn't get wildly diverging answers. You might even get answers that seem "pretty fucking left". Consider the issue of $2000 checks, for example.

If you asked them about culture, however... good luck.

Just an example: the conservative opinion on family, and the opinion that family is an evil patriarchical construct that must be abolished, are in two different moral universes.

Another example: the neoliberal censorship that is the reason this website exists. You can't say you don't understand the divide when you are currently using a website that is the product of that divide.

This is why I'm trying to build bridges. If you set up a candidate who is anti-war and pro-welfare for Americans, I guarantee you that you could get conservatives to support that candidate in droves as long as they leave the culture stuff behind. They don't have to be outspoken one way or the other. Just don't openly pledge to use the full power of government to fuck over conservatives on cultural issues.

You get a politician who stands by all the lefty policies you love. Conservatives get a candidate who is objectively better for them, doesn't explicitly hate them as a demographic, and doesn't push the "Republican" BS everybody hates.

Orrrrrr we could keep dividing the proles against each other on hot-button cultural issues that ultimately mean nothing, as each votes in neoliberal/neoconservative candidates on a 4-year rotating cycle, who do nothing but expand the powers of the police and surveillance states. Conservatives supporting free trade and tax cuts to "own the libs", leftists supporting woke monopolistic megacorporations and foreign wars to "own the cons".

[–]AcceleratedWallops 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you asked average Democrats and Republicans about their economic values, you probably wouldn't get wildly diverging answers.

Maybe, maybe not. I've talked to some conservatives who are firm believers in trickle-down jesus, and I've talked to some who, as you pointed out, are ready for those $2000 checks.

opinion that family is an evil patriarchical construct that must be abolished

This is not a real though. You're strawmanning. (And before you go looking: I'm sure it's "real" on twitter and tumblr. But I've never met anyone like that in real life, despite living in one of the Bluest states. The twitterists are loud but they do not represent the left anymore than the kkk represents the right.)

the neoliberal censorship that is the reason this website exists.

Again, I don't consider neolibs "the left." If anything I'd consider them auth center. I think most leftists would agree that censorship is bad (although we are happy to call out people for being racist assholes).

If you set up a candidate who is anti-war and pro-welfare for Americans, I guarantee you that you could get conservatives to support that candidate in droves as long as they leave the culture stuff behind

So...Bernie? (Although I suppose he has been more outspoken about guns in recent years.)