Root causes, not just Symptoms

submitted by Bearcat22 from self.WayOfTheBern

I'd like to think this is or could be a genuinely non partisan forum, though I am dubious.

It's my observation that most persons tend to focus on symptoms rather than finding a cure for the illness.

I think most persons would agree that an unwanted pregnancy is generally undesirable. Rather than bickering over what to do AFTER an unwanted pregnancy happens, why not focus on how to prevent unwanted pregnancy from happening in the first place, on both sides of the debate?

What would be most effective? What has a proven track record of working?

Somewhat off topic, but you may find the following interesting. A charity sent hundreds of thousands of condoms to the nation of India, to help slow the growth of population, especially among the poor. This effort failed. Not because Indians refused to use condoms. Not because of ineffective distribution or education. But because Western condoms do not, in general, fit the average Indian male penis. The condoms just fell off, too large. No one bothered to check in advance. My point is, good intentions are NOT enough, ever.

Want another example? Some kind and well meaning Scandinavians noted severe famine in a section of Africa. At huge expense, they dug an artificial lake, filled it with water and fish, built boats and a dock. They came back a year later, and the people were still starving. Why? The Africans consider fish inedible and disgusting. Nothing was done to acclimate them to this "common sense" solution from Scandinavians, who always eat fish.

Want another example? A tiny rural town started charging it's relatively lower economic class citizens for each large item at the dump, intending to use the fee to recycle the computer, broken washing machine, etc. Soon thereafter, the woods started filling up with junk because people refused to pay fees at the dump.

Well meaning politicians, often liberals, can't seem to think through and see potential negative consequences.

What could be done instead? Suppose the manufacturer of every retail item were required to pay the government a fee up front, that fee to be equal to the full cost of recycling the item. The company could choose to pass the cost on to the consumer, or not. Put the burden where it belongs, on the source, not the consumer.

Not that I advocate recycling, I think it's an asinine waste of time and money that actually generates pollution and lets naive people keep consuming and using resources while assuaging their consciences.

McDonald's successfully dodged such a proposed law, intended to make McDonald's pay for all the food litter it created. They instead got off the hook by creating a "Please don't Litter" campaign....which, of course, was utterly ineffective. So.....how do you prevent creepy results like that? Ban lobbying? Ban PACs? Enforce the death penalty on politicians that accept bribes?

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[–]kingsmegLiberté, égalité, fraternité 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

M'kay, here's a completely non-partisan assessment of the situation as I see it:

Humanity has been enslaved by a parasitical class of people who hold power over all of us and compel us to work for their enrichment. They have grown fabulously wealthy by enslaving us, amassing riches to last them 10,000 lifetimes, but that is never enough for them, they always think their slaves are greedy and lazy and are always working to further immiserate us for their own benefit. Lately they've taken to calling us 'useless eaters' and plotting to get rid of the majority of us, seemingly oblivious to the fact that we're the ones who make all the things and grow all the food, and all they do is just take that from us and gloat, Smaug-like, over their hoards of gold.

So how would you go about attacking the root problem? Vote Red/Blue/Third Party?

[–]Bearcat22[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That hardly sounds non partisan to me. It sounds like Marxism: The rich are to blame for everything is what I hear you saying.

As I see it, we've got a choice.

  1. Let self interested persons voluntarily pool their money to create things, at their own risk of profit or loss.
  2. Enslave everyone under a supposed 'commune', like the collapsed dumpster fire of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or Venezuela. How'd that work out? ************* An essential problem is the concept of division of labor. In a business, this is generally efficient. Government, not so much. When you use democracy to delegate the work of decision-making, things go off the rails. Who knows best how to spend YOUR money? You, or a democratically elected "representative"? ********* Precisely WHO is this "parasitical class"? I live in America. No one holds a gun to your head and tells you that you are not allowed to quit your job and get a different one. No one prevents you from starting your own business if you don't like your job. No one forces you to buy anything you don't want.
    *************** You fault the productive and the ambitious for not adhering to YOUR definition of what is 'enough'? If you have proof that they gained wealth unlawfully, by all means, take them to court. Happens all the time. Amazon declared a monopoly recently. Fine. &&&&&&&&&& The principle of accumulating capital is a proven way to create jobs and and general prosperity. Killing the golden goose, aka as socialism/communism is a proven dead end. ******* There is indeed undeserved wealth under CRONY capitalism, under corrupt democracy. Who knows best how to spend YOUR money? You, or a democratically elected "representative"? ********* Democracy as practiced in America is utterly corrupt. It runs on money. The solution is not to kill the golden goose, it is to remove money from politics, to eliminate democracy, which is just two gangs of cannibals. No more corrupt "representatives". Pay your own way. Mind your own business. Use force only in self defense. ((((((((((((( Don't steal from your neighbor, don't allow him to steal from you: no more taxes. &&&&&&&&& Who knows best how to spend YOUR money? You, or a democratically elected "representative"? As the lady said...."Socialism works, until you run out of other people's money". &&&&&& Undue influence doesn't arise from accumulated wealth. It arises when regulation by government makes it possible. It arises when politicians can be bribed. 88888888888 Unregulated Capitalism is a boom and bust system. Responsible people save their money to get through the bust times. Democracy as now practiced instead lets people be irresponsible children, taxing the future in order to gain short term effects, so a hack can get re elected. Government generates nothing, it is a parasite. All it can do is steal from one to benefit another, meanwhile pocketing a juicy slice for itself.
    &&&&&&& It is impossible for any form of government to regulate an economy effectively. Stalin and Mao found this out, and millions of people died as a result.

[–]kingsmegLiberté, égalité, fraternité 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What does it profit a man to gain an iPhone if he loses his freedom?

We lived for hundreds of thousands of years in tribal groups bound by blood, before the division of labor required by large-scale agriculture, which itself was required to create a surplus needed to support 'god-kings' and their priests and armies. We haven't been free since.

Personally, I would trade that iPhone and even the Intertubes for a chance to live a fulfilling life, surrounded by my extended family.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So in your view, why doesn't #1 happen?

Here's my opinion: anyone who's ever worked for an organization knows that most people love to talk about problems and propose abstract solutions but the number who are willing to actually roll up their sleeves and do the necessary grunt work are few and far between. I had the exact same experience as a middle manager in various social services organizations over a 40-year career as I did chairing the board of a charity for 8 years.

The reality is that humans are fundamentally lazy, and i don't point fingers at others without pointing it back to myself because I'm incredibly lazy about many things. But the reason we have such a massively uninformed public is because so many people are too lazy to get informed; it's not impossible but it does take time and effort. Instead they rely on talking points, they take their opinions from newspaper headlines instead of even reading the full article when doing so would expose them to the disclaimers that negate or mitigate what the headline just told them. If you don't even understand what the problem is or that there is one, how likely are you to contribute in a positive way to the solution?

[–]Bearcat22[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

1 doesn't happen because of government regulation.

Humans are not FUNDAMENTALLY lazy. That's a common and vile excuse. "oh, I'm only human". The definition of being human is being perfectible, not doomed to failure. The few who choose not to be lazy are punished for their virtues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX4MKIDvXLM&t=2s

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'd like to think this is or could be a genuinely non partisan forum, though I am dubious.

As a moderator here, I can only say that I hope your skepticism is alleviated by spending some time here. Our rules in the sidebar stress civil engagement only.

[–]Bearcat22[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Good to hear from you. I hope you will finally repair a years old chronic problem on the site, which I am also experiencing. Every time I try to post, I get an "error 403" message. As for my skepticism, I'm seeing zero non partisan content, zero actually constructive content, just the usual mud slinging.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'd gladly repair the 403 error problem if I could but that's a site issue. And despite SaidIt users complaining about it, it doesn't sound like it will change anytime soon. You can see the site owner's comments on it from October of last year here; there's more recent comments where he said why cloudflare was re-implemented after a very brief hiatus but I don't have the link handy.

As for mud-slinging, it is a political sub and politics is a contentious issue. We do try to keep the discussions civil, however; i.e., not resorting to ad homs and such, and this is what I was referring to.

We do not curate content here so as long as a post is relevant and doesn't violate rules against promoting hate and violence or spam, people are free to post what they want.

You're free to post more content of the type you'd like to see. As with any forum, there's no guarantee that a post will gain traction or engagement. As you've probably noticed, this sub is pretty low activity at the moment. During the API blackout at Reddit, many of our members from the WOTB subreddit there came here and there was more going on but that changed once things opened up on Reddit again, no doubt due in part to the annoying cloudflare nonsense. I'd spend a lot less time here myself if I weren't a mod and didn't feel obligated to keep the home fires burning.

[–]Bearcat22[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Except that is false. I'm NOT "free to post more content of the type you'd like to see", because every single GOD DAMN TIME I try to post, I get this 403 error and sent to "prove you're human". I thought that Reddit was rat shit, with it's "only popular posts get to stay up" policy. This site is almost worse. Downvotes as a method of removing posts is lazy, dishonest and results in incest stagnation.....not surprising, as most of the site is deluded 18 year old socialists. FUCK rules against promoting hate or violence. Such rules treat the audience like infants or retards. Some things DO factually deserve to be hated, and do deserve a violent reaction. That is objective reality. Stop trying to cancel what is honest and authentic. It's futile, and only causes MORE rage.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's certainly causing your blind rage against this sub and me personally for things we don't control. Rant away, I've stopped listening.

[–]Bearcat22[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lazy. Dishonest. Cowardly.