Russia will never tolerate Ukraine as a member of NATO

submitted by jerryk from (self.WayOfTheBern)

That's what this current Ukrainian war is really about. Russia cannot, and will not tolerate NATO nuclear missiles based on Ukraine's northern border with Russia. The entire nation of Russia would be totally under NATO's thumb. Which, of course, is precisely what NATO wants! But, not Russia.

Effectively, this would amount to a similar situation to one in which China and Russia made Mexico their military partner, and positioned Chinese and Russian nuclear missiles all along the Rio Grande. How would the Americans like that? Not very much. We all remember how President Kennedy went ballistic about the missiles in Cuba. So, really, is it so very difficult to understand the Russian position about Ukraine having NATO membership?

What the Russians are doing now is building up impregnable fortifications in Ukraine, and forcing the Ukrainians to take massive casualties in unsuccessful efforts to penetrate these defenses. This is wasting Ukrainian manpower and NATO resources in massive quantities. Enough so, that NATO is already tiring of wasting their efforts, and the alliance against Russia is becoming very shaky.

Of course, if NATO wishes to continue spending massive amounts of money to support a losing cause, Russia is prepared to continue their efforts. Russia will never give up, and, Russia cannot lose. Remember, this is more of an existential battle for Russia than for the West. Russia doesn't particularly want to invade Western Europe, and has no reason to do so. They just want Ukraine under their control. And, they are gradually getting Ukraine under their control, despite the West's best efforts.

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[–]mzyps 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The prize is Russia. That's why the hostile military alliance wants to fill the Russian border with advanced weaponry. There is no backing off. The western oligarchy would like to balkanize Russia for its own profits. It offends them that Russia does capitalism, with, until recently, Germany and the western European states. The plan so far has been to extend the war for a few more decades. Otherwise deceit and silence. Oh yeah, the plan helps keep the Euros dependent on North America. Peace with Russia? Only if Russia is owned and dominated by western capital. (What's it going to be like for the other players, you know, anywhere on the fucking globe?) What could go wrong?

Don't worry, your government and nation are likely implicated. Did people vote for this? What'll happen next? What will media news cycles be like out there in the far-flung future? Don't American still hate and want to kill Vietnamese by the truckload? North Koreans? Iraqis? Iranians? Afghanis? Syrians?

[–]jerryk[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The American people already oppose this war. Most of Europe, with the exception of the British, never really supported it. I really don't see how support can continue indefinitely under these circumstances, whatever the "elites" might wish. And, of course, without massive outside support, Ukraine is Russian. Inevitably.

[–]mzyps 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

However, the American people who count overwhelmingly support the war. The corporations who count will also support this and additional wars. It can and will go on indefinitely, though if expedient it will re-direct to other nations in the area. NATO expansion and militarization of Russian borders will continue. These other people want similar pressures, provocations with China. India too, if they happen to step out of line and get "uppity." Same with Africa, South America. Expect it.

[–]SudoBreakSandwich 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Lack of respect for Russia. Respect doesn't mean you endorse somethin but in a way it means you dont do blatantly dumbass shit

[–]jerryk[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Americans have been so successful for most of their history that they simply cannot conceive of the possibility that anyone could possibly disagree with them about anything, and be right. The Russians have their own ways of doing things, and they aren't always totally consistent with American views and values. But, the Russians have been around much longer than Americans have been. And, the Russians know very well what they are doing. America should not underestimate Russia. Nations that underestimate Russia always regret it, and suffer for it. Always.

[–]BerryBoy1969It's not red vs. blue - It's capital vs. you 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Americans have been so successful for most of their history that they simply cannot conceive of the possibility that anyone could possibly disagree with them about anything, and be right.

Yup...

[–]3andfro 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe not "Americans" but the increasingly echo-chamber, old school hegemonic mentalities that direct US foreign policy and ignore diplomacy in favor of MIC dominance and economic thumbscrews.

[–]chakokat 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nations that underestimate Russia always regret it, and suffer for it. Always.

They don’t teach history in US schools. They teach the American version of history. So Americans don’t know that the Soviet Union aka Russia a WWII ally and was instrumental in defeating Germany and Japan ( yes Russia stretches from Germany to the Russia-Japan maritime boundary and fought in that theatre too ). And Americans don’t know that the Soviets lost 27 million people of which almost 6 million were ethnic Russians. So yeah, is it any surprise that the US underestimated Russia aka “Putin”? 😉

[–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There's only one flaw in your argument. Correct, this is an existential battle for the whole of Russian civilization. But it is also an existential battle for the Western elite. They've already sold our industrial base overseas, which means we don't have enough people here producing actual wealth. Wealth which supports the vast army of pencil pushers, baristas, Hollywood writers, thought leaders, and speculators.

What is the basis of their rule other than economic prosperity? That wealth has to come from somewhere.

Well, now they're fucked. They clearly cannot force a regime change in Russia, so there is no way in hell they can do it to China. Africa is starting to find her footing.

I don't think they can even defeat Mexico now. Their control of the world's resources will end and they know it.

[–]jerryk[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You make a good point. Certainly, American society is decadent and corrupt as all Hell. Surely, one could have no better symbol of this than Elon Musk, I believe. A drugged up, oversexed con artist presenting himself as a scientific genius and the greatest inventor since Thomas Edison. And, Americans believe it, too! Now, his "Starship" threatens to destroy the States of Texas and Florida by repeated catastrophic explosions, as Musk prepares to colonize Mars with a rocket that can't even get off the ground without blowing up. Musk has slaughtered innumerable monkeys in a quest to cure mental illness with brain implants in his Neuralink company. Now, he wants to kill innumerable people with human trials of the same "technology". Musk is, by this time, totally insane.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

And they only want Ukraine under their control since it became obvious that the West was determined to bring it into NATO. This was not a goal of Russia for as long as Ukraine stayed neutral, consistent with their Constitution (which has now been changed).

The determination of NATO to expand right up to Russia's borders so as to encircle them, which has been going on now for decades despite Western assurances they would not bring either former Soviet republics or members of the Warsaw pact into the alliance, is why there's a war in Ukraine. Their intentions were spelled out in a 1993 think tank paper, The Barry R. Posen Plan for War on Russia via Zombie State Ukraine.

Some of the neocon architects of this travesty are undeniably driven by ideology, but let's not forget Russia's centrality to the Heartland and by extension the World Island, which contains over 50% of the world's resources:

  • Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland;

  • Who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island;

  • Who rules the World-Island commands the world.

Related quote:

Who controls the food supply controls the people; who controls the energy can control whole continents; who controls money can control the world - Henry Kissinger

[–]jerryk[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Sure. Of course, NATO will claim that their intentions are totally peaceful. Sure, the U.S. never attacked anybody! Other than Vietnam, the Dominican Republic, Panama, Grenada, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan etc. etc. and anybody they don't like, anywhere on planet, with totally illegal terrorist drone strikes with murderous intent! Now, Russia isn't perfect, by any means. But, who is?

When someone makes a move

Of which we don't approve

Who is it that always intervenes?

U.N. and O.A.S.,

They have their place, I guess

But first send the Marines!

We'll send them all we've got

John Wayne and Randolph Scott

Remember those exciting fighting scenes?

To the shores of Tripoli

But not to Mississippoli

What do we do? we send the Marines!

For might makes right

And till they've seen the light

They've got to be protected

All their rights respected

Till somebody we like can be elected!

Members of the Corps

All hate the thought of war

They'd rather kill them off by peaceful means

Stop calling it aggression

Ooh, we hate that expression!

We only want the world to know

That we support the status quo

They love us everywhere we go

So when in doubt

Send the Marines!

Tom Lehrer Send the Marines!

https://www.google.com/search?q=tom+lehrer+send+the+marines+lyrics&sca_esv=568919982&ei=I4cUZaCFCsykqtsPoNmgqAw&ved=0ahUKEwjgoqHYx8uBAxVMkmoFHaAsCMUQ4dUDCBE&uact=5&oq=tom+lehrer+send+the+marines+lyrics&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiInRvbSBsZWhyZXIgc2VuZCB0aGUgbWFyaW5lcyBseXJpY3MyBRAAGIAESMVOUKoEWNZEcAl4AZABAZgBiAGgAc0fqgEENjAuM7gBA8gBAPgBAcICChAAGEcY1gQYsAPCAgUQIRigAcICBhAAGBYYHsICCBAAGIoFGIYDwgIIEC4YigUYkQLCAhcQLhiKBRiRAhiXBRjcBBjeBBjgBNgBAcICBRAuGIAEwgIIEAAYigUYkQLCAgcQIRigARgKwgIFECEYqwLCAgcQLhgNGIAEwgIHEAAYDRiABMICFhAuGA0YgAQYlwUY3AQY3gQY4ATYAQHiAwQYACBBiAYBkAYIugYGCAEQARgU&sclient=gws-wiz-serp&safe=active&ssui=on#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:fe5055d0,vid:eFvxqQTh3m4,st:0

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They don't even wait for someone to make a move they don't approve of unless you count refusing to become a vassal to US empire. Building empire is about acquiring resources though the Cold War and Vietnam were also about stopping the spread of Communism, or at least that was the stated objective. Can't remember who it was who said that Yugoslavia only became a target after the dissolution of the USSR because it was a successful "socialist" country with a thriving economy that combined robust manufacturing capacity with generous social welfare policies. Whether or not this is an accurate assessment, it sounds about right.

[–]chakokat 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Agree but more importantly Yugoslavia was the test case for “Balkanization”. It was the first time that NATO waged war on a nation which had not attacked any NATO member. NATO /US wanted to see how the world would react. Russia was the only country to object but they were too weak themselves ( Yeltsin the drunk ) to do much of anything except voice protest at the UN. After dismembering YU they went on to dismember bigger and richer nations, Afghanistan ( not standard of living richer but resource richer ) ,Iraq, Libya, Syria, Egypt ( Arab Spring ) and who knows how many other regime changes were unsuccessful .

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep, that totally describes it. So I guess when the Soviet Union dissolved and there was no more need for NATO as a defensive alliance, they just decided to become an offensive one and expand beyond the North Atlantic. War whores are so repugnant.

[–]jerryk[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Hey, buddy,, if you refuse to become a vassal of the US empire, you've most definitely made a move they don't approve of!

[–]3andfro 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"If you're not with us you're agin us."