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[–]xoenix[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yep. She's becoming one of the politically homeless. 15 years of leftist advocacy and carrying water for the Democrats, but you make one complaint about "birthing parents" and boom, you're a far-right shill. You've always been a far-right shill.

[–]Alienhunter糞大名 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It's an issue with progressive ideology in general. Whether that be the progressive left or right. They're always going to be focused on whatever the avant-garde issue de jure is but they rarely if ever want to deal with the issues of criticisms of that idea in a good faith manner and just resort to demonizing their criticizers instead. Which ultimately doesn't sink their movements since while there's certainly some criticisms that are stupid basically every idea has problems with it and unless the issues are worked out they'll grow until they become unmanageable which lends ground to extreme counter movements to your own.

And I think a lot of that comes from this intellectual laziness where people aren't willing to even defend or construct arguments in favor of why they believe what they believe. They simply want to take it as a given that their position is the correct one and that anyone who doesn't hold that position must simply be evil. Which is the core reason why it's given comparisons to a religious way of thinking. Of course it is utterly unquestionably true that the specific interpretation of God given by our one true church must be obviously true, you'd be stupid to think otherwise since heretics are evil and must be burned at the stake.

Like how could those wicked vile foreigners not see the obvious unquestionably inarguable truth behind our ideological superiority, it's unthinkable? Can anyone give me a reason? Of course you can't. You'd be a dangerous evil person to even think of a reason.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

"Progressive right"?

They simply want to take it as a given that their position is the correct one and that anyone who doesn't hold that position must simply be evil.

Yes, this is correct.

Johnathan Haidt's research has so far uncovered six evolved psychological mechanisms of social perception, subconscious intuitive understanding, and conscious reasoning. He calls them moral foundations. He ALSO finds that moral foundations are the essential building blocks of human society. In his 2008 TED Talk "The Moral Roots of Liberals and Conservatives" he explains that human society is possible through the use of "all the tools in the toolbox." It's no coincidence that evolution pre-wired them into our brains.

Haidt finds that conservatives use all of them but liberals use about half of them, and of that half mostly just one. There's no conservative moral foundation that is not also a liberal one, but half of the conservative foundations are external to, and inaccessible by, liberal cognition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc

[–]opinioncloset 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My theory is that wokescolds are actually essentially people with a "conservative mindset" in a liberal disguise.

(note: I'm not as well-read on Haidt's newer liberty/oppression moral foundation so I'm not including it here)

Haidt says liberals use "harm/care" and "fairness" as their foundations, while conservatives add "authority", "ingroup", and "purity". It's notable that people in the "woke" subset appeal to those foundations as well:

Purity is somewhat obvious; words and actions have taken on a strong association with being "pure" and "impure". Policing speech used to be associated primarily with conservativism (think of religious people getting upset at swearing). Now it's also associated with an ever-changing list of 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' terms (I still remember the short time when everyone was saying "trans" and they would get upset if you didn't use the "")

Ingroup is reasonably obvious too; there is an extremely strong "us vs. them" mentality among the woke. There are also signaling games—think of how many woke people use explicit visual signals to demonstrate they're one of the "good guys".

Appeal to authority is a little harder; things like the hero-worship of RBG or Stacey Abrams resemble it, but woke culture is just as willing to rip its idols to shreds in the way traditional conservatives may not.

So my theory is that because of the tribalism that's developed in the US political sphere, there are people who should be conservatives, but can't for social reasons (all of their friends and community are ostensibly liberal), so they channel their conservative moral foundations into other avenues.

There are other ways this crops up too, relevant to other research in political psychology. The traditional liberal is characterized by a general optimism about humanity, while the traditional conservative is skeptical and more defensive. Think of a stereotypical liberal hippie perhaps naïvely seeing the best in everyone compared to the stereotypical conservative suburbanite, cautious or afraid of people unlike him.

The woke, though, are observably pessimistic towards other people. The mantra of everybody being racist is cut from the same cloth as the stereotypical conservative idea that everyone is out to get them.

I'm actually really curious what the endgame is here. I kind of expect a realignment at some point, where the cadre of people who hold actual liberal moral foundational values, even if they're at odds with the woke, eventually becomes more of a cultural block. Most of the people that started on the (cultural) left (like myself) have been very reluctant to publicly reveal their adherence to these values due to the social risk, but it feels like we're at a tipping point, and I've had more and more conversations where I'll be talking to someone one-on-one and they'll eventually reveal that they're a little skeptical of some of the woke dogma.

Regarding where the woke end up, I don't see them aligning with traditional conservatives any time soon—even though they have similar moral foundations, there's just way too much object level stuff they disagree with to see eye-to-eye. But I think this is actually par for the course for conservative mindsets. While all people with liberal mindsets naturally glom together (tribalism is alien to their values), "purity", "authority", and especially "ingroup" encourage multiple factions within those with conservative mindsets. For an extreme example, think of the Yugoslav wars, which were essentially fought between multiple different conservative factions, not conservative vs. liberal.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Haidt says liberals use "harm/care" and "fairness" as their foundations, while conservatives add "authority", "ingroup", and "purity". It's notable that people in the "woke" subset appeal to those foundations as well:

The main problem here is attributing these traits to liberal vs conservative. It makes complete sense if you realize that the people being described as "woke" are just right wing but just on a different hierarchy. They are not conservative, they are radical. Being right wing is hierarchal but there are many types of hierarchy. For some reason people have such a difficult time understanding this. It's a bit easier to understand if you look at 2 different religions.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

While all people with liberal mindsets naturally glom together (tribalism is alien to their values)

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Sectarianism is a huge problem on the left. They get into vicious fights with people they agree with 98%.

the stereotypical conservative idea that everyone is out to get them.

I don't think that's stereotypical at all. Conservative societies are the ones that have high levels of trust of strangers. Something frequently exploited by the left, they think anyone who is that trusting is a complete idiot who deserves to be ripped off.