GenderCritical does not belong on Saidit. The moderators are determined to not follow site rules.

submitted by bobbobbybob from self.SaidIt

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

People's opinions being judged on the basis of their identity or person, for example, the idea that women would need a space online, absent of their physical presence on a site, where they cannot face danger by being confronted on their opinion. It is what the left is doing with minorities, black people, for example. You can have an opinion or input on something because of your "lived experience". That is akin to saying that a cancer patient is an oncologist.

If you are a male gynecologist, you can still know more about the female body than the average woman. I am a human male, yet, a woman who would have studied (male) anatomy would probably know more about my body than I do.

I believe identitarian positions to be inherently nonsensical. I also despise the idea that men are so detrimental to women that just sharing a discussion board online is harmful to them. An online space already puts you so far apart that this is completely irrelevant. There will also always, always, always be men in any women's space online. It is unavoidable. You can set up sites like Spinsters and you would still have men in the mix. The only difference is between them being honest or not, and I much prefer honesty, as far as it does not compromise the desired level of anonymity, than pretending.

These positions are so untenable in so many ways. Everything about this ideology is contradictory and nonsensical. As a consequence, these online communities inherit the contradictions. That is why they always have to defend their existence with exclusionary rules, banning, silence, authoritarianism. They can never survive on sound logic or truth alone. They always need to shut out a portion of arguments that threaten their premises.

It is not only that they always contort themselves into mental pretzels when structuring their community rules, they also always need to shun honest examination of the basis of their ideology, such as history, biology, evolutionary psychology, or simple statistics. How do people live like this for so long? I used to be a far leftist and I ran into these contradictions, after which I kicked it to the curb.

Let's cut the bullshit and state it plainly: there is no "community of women". What there actually is is a web page displaying text. You are not in danger, you are not in community with anyone. It's some text in English on a screen and either the content is useful or it is not, it is true, false or undecidable. You do not know how it was input, by whom, in what mental state, of what gender, if they were sincere, trolling, or parroting back the party line for approval.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Thanks for explaining.

I guess for me, personally I have been very, idk, into identity stuff lately. I've been following radical feminism and white identity stuff.

I do see some problems with it, and I can see how I'm kindof being used... idk that radical feminism or the alt-right are really acting effectively in the best interests of women or whites all the time. Like, sometimes it seems to help. And I appreciate having a refuge of sorts when I'm tired of hearing how dumb women are, or how bad whites are. And sometimes I just want to be around people who are more "like me," although there are ways I don't feel like I fit in with either of those groups too.

I like them though. I feel like it's different with the spaces are just for people of those groups. Like I tend to have different conversations offline with people in my life if I'm alone with one person, or in a group, or whatever. It's just different. And I don't think there's anything wrong or censorious about having spaces like that, that are clearly defined and explained, and aren't using a space that's meant for everyone (like e.g. /r/news).

It feels like there is value in it too. People are different, sometimes, ethnicity to ethnicity, gender to gender. I usually find it easier to talk with female people, idk why but it's just something I've observed. I usually feel more comfortable with other white people, not always, and sometimes that's just due to political stuff, and sometimes I feel more at ease with people who are from my same locale regardless of race. But it's there. I think there is a value in having spaces like this too.

I don't think having spaces like this necessarily requires people to have the full identitarian politics thing you're talking about though.

Do you feel a similar frustration with things that are meant for groups that you're personally part of, demographically?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know anything about the rest. Whatever is personal preference is up to you. If you're on a dating site, you want to be able to specify male or female, of course. If you are looking for a book on chemistry, it might be silly to prefer reading from a male or female author, and I will call you silly for it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Do you feel a similar frustration with things that are meant for groups that you're personally part of, demographically?

Oh, yes, I absolutely do. But that is out of identitarianism, which is why I hate it. I am increasingly forced into thinking in terms of my group membership and my ethnicity, because it can make the difference between me being murdered or not. I am not that naive.

Again, I am not making any statements about my person, just as I believe I have not disclosed my gender or ethnicity, but the more other people validate identity, the less choice I have to remain oblivious to it. I used to have far more connection with people based on interest. I could connect with someone from the other side of the planet based on the same interests.

The gaming community, for example, was destroyed in large part that way, I believe. It used to actually be one of the most inclusive communities imaginable. It did not matter what your gender or ethnicity was. If you liked some of the same games, you were instantly part of the group. It had the ability to bridge divides like few other things. Identitarians destroyed that. On this point, for example, feminists often allege that they were excluded from gaming communities. That could not be further from the truth. Men would have loved women to have shown interests in some of the same hobbies. Instead, it was derided, displayed as "uncool", you were bullied for it, by other men, and women would not have anything to do with you. We all saw that growing up, but now it seems we deny the most transparent parts about our culture.

The smears, lies, and the constant victimhood ideologies were what destroyed it. Suddenly, mere disagreement was violence. Everybody was being equally targeted with abuse for playing badly. People didn't usually know your gender or ethnicity anyway. That is some of the hypocrisy I see in radfems circles and from feminists who say they are being harassed online, on platforms where they have the choice to be completely anonymous. It's transparent what these people are doing. They disclose their identity on purpose so they can claim that they were attacked for it. Had they remained anonymous, such allegations would be obviously without basis. It's like Brianna Wu posting abuse to herself on her own dev account.

Keeping people safe from disagreement keeps them stunted in development. It is the same with the black community as it is with women. Men supposedly have an advantage in their upbringing and maybe that is true in so far that they are not as coddled, that they are told not to cry, that they are told to "man up". Such a community always remains infantile and dependent. People of a more self-reliant generation point this out about their own communities, such as Thomas Sowell. Black people are similarly hypocritical, at least black identitarians, in many of the same ways. They grow up sneering at education, looking down on other blacks who sit down and do their homework, but then they grow up to be useless and complain they were not given the same opportunities. They spat at the opportunities they did have.

But, the more important these aspects become, the more I shift whatever is relevant to identity offline. I do not know whom I speak to online. It could be anyone on the other side of the keyboard. People I need to trust I need to have met offline. I am building such a community, because I do not know how much worse the culture is getting. Then, I might need someone I can rely on.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I am increasingly forced into thinking in terms of my group membership and my ethnicity, because it can make the difference between me being murdered or not. I am not that naive.

It can? You think people from other groups want to murder you?

I used to have far more connection with people based on interest. I could connect with someone from the other side of the planet based on the same interests.

Yeah tbh I've had this experience too. :(

I've missed out on friendships because of this stuff, because it's inside me now, this group-identity stuff, and because it's inside the other people I'm supposed to be connecting with. Who it should be easy for me to connect with.

The smears, lies, and the constant victimhood ideologies were what destroyed it.

Yeah I think this is how the political groups recruit.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It can? You think people from other groups want to murder you?

Yes! Jesus, absolutely. If you walk into the wrong parts of certain cities, in certain countries, you better be aware what skin color you have. Today, it can make the difference between being hired or not, getting a spot in college, being attacked on the street, and in some particularly unsafe places if you get mugged or not, if you make it home alive.

Again, I do not disclose anything about my person, my skin color, my gender, but not all countries on this planet are equally safe. Some people who have it best complain the most. They do not realize how safe their communities are in comparison.

Just to be clear, I didn't think this way, I still don't like what is going on but it can be very dangerous to be naive to it.

Also, I don't know what "people from other groups" means. Everybody is from another group, by some metric. I know that I am more likely to be attacked based on certain characteristics. It's not out of some paranoia about certain groups.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think it's gotten worse recently?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

With identity politics, yes. There is no way to push back against this anymore, either. The victimhood hierarchy is too firmly established. If you do not have the right identity, or if your attacker ranks more highly in the oppression game, you get nowhere.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/37410/dad-left-paralysed-with-half-a-skull-and-sunken-brain-after-brutal-attack-by-thug-who-gets-just-two-months-in-jail/