"interesting" thread about the femme/butch label debate I've found, what do y'all think?

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[–]HelloMomo 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

Yes, there used to be less focus on orientation and more focus on behavior. But then modern bisexuals reverse-engineer it to add orientation back in and make it not behavior-based.

If bi women want to call themselves that in the context of dating women I don't really care. It's bi women dating men and calling themselves femme or whatever that bothers me.

[–]Gearbeta 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Yeah it feels like what's happening is in the past the bisexuals that were hanging around lesbians back then were the ones actually interested in having a serious relationship with another woman. And modern bisexuals are trying to use that to act like they belong with /deserve to be called lesbians/terms exclusive to lesbians despite some/most of them only being interested in men and only slightly being attracted to women. Back in those days, people like that would have been considered straight.

[–]florasis 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Bisexuals who just care about men are very common. A man who only got minimal same sex attraction would never call himself bisexual, but a woman does it, cause bisexuality is considered sexy for women. Then no wonder a lot of lesbian got an hate toward bisexual girls.

[–]VioletRemi 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Experience matters too, many lesbians I know who had relationship with bisexuals are saying that bisexuals almost always running back to men, often to same man they break up. My experience is somewhat the same. However, I know there are bisexuals who marrying women and very happy without the dick.

[–]Gearbeta 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Yeah there's cool bis out there but because wlw (sorry not quite sure how to word this) relationships are so sexualized and not taken seriously, women who imo should be considered straight are saying they're bi and will troll dating websites for a third, refuse to take relationships with women seriously (ex. my boyfriend says I can date women on the side but not men, expect lesbian partners to be men lite before breaking up and going back to men), and pretend to be lesbians when they're mad at their male ex. And there's zero chance that type of shit would have been welcomed in the lesbian/bisexual spaces of the past.

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

First ukrainian movie with lesbians that was shown on big screens was about that. It was mix of Sapphpo verses + some Hemingway novel.

One rich but lonely women was living on an island and was drawing pictures. Straight couple came there to have a rest, but woman in relationship (I will call her bisexual from now on) did not liked that man much. Rich woman (I will call her lesbian from nowon ) liked that woman and flirted a bit with her. Bisexual woman saw that lesbian have sexual interest with her and started relationship with her first. Man saw that coming, but was not interrupting (he thought it is not real sex and not cheating, I guess). Then near the end, bisexual decided to run with that man, leaving lesbian alone, lesbian jumped down to her death from the crag they first kissed.

Ukrainian song with clip from there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lBetYkmyd4

Lyrics are: Do you even know how it hurts? And it never goes away. And while whole World asleep - please kiss me" (or more like "be kissing me", meaning not one kiss, but kissing, until world awakes).

[–]florasis 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That's so shitty, my God

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah. I did not liked it much, but after knowing that many lesbians had similar experience with bisexual women, who just used them for short romance, I am much less critical to movie.

[–]florasis 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The bi women who got serious attraction toward women don't behave like that.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They don’t, but they are outnumbered by these others, it’s sad for them!

[–]mangosplums 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

reminds me of the movie lost & delirious

[–]florasis 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I had a good experience. she So, I'm not against dating bi. But it depends for person to person, the one who got a preferance toward men and prefer dating them because of being more attracted or being normal, are pretty bad experiences. But in general, the ones who got married with women got a female preferance

[–]VioletRemi 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am not against dating bi either, however it will need more time to check if she is really interested in me, or just bored.

[–]yousaythosethings 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep that’s exactly it. Just like transbians trying to claim the history of homosexual transsexuals through forced teaming. Heterosexual males attracted to lesbians were not part of the gay rights movement because they didn’t need gay rights ffs.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

A lesbian femme is a totally different woman than a heterosexual feminine woman, or bisexual feminine woman. These people don’t even understand lesbian relationship dynamics and their heads would literally explode if they knew many butches are the exact opposite of a male stereotype and even sexually submissive compared to their femme partners, if they are dating butch/femme. I love telling straight people that and watching the confusion

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Please stop speaking on behalf of butch lesbians.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I'm also butch and found her statement accurate.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good for you. You should be more vocal about your experiences as a butch lesbian. I made a post inviting others to do so. Maybe you should lend your thoughts and experiences, if you feel so inclined.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I’m speaking about the butch women I have known and had connections with in the real world, and I have every right to do so. I say “many,” not all. Don’t police me if you don’t like being policed.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You could have made that more clear in your comment. You actually have no idea if "many" is accurate or not. Lots of things play into these behaviors from location, culture, upbringing, mental health, etc. and to suggest that you alone can accurately estimate these things about a group of people that you aren't a part of seems excessive to me.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

What is your problem? All she said is "many" butches aren't male stereotypes or sexually dominant. What is possibly objectionable about that?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't have a problem. I invited you to share your views and experiences. If you don't want to, that's fine. The part I take issue with is letting one narrative dominate over others about butches or any demographic of people. We should speak up so people will know that there isn't a single archetype, or two or three, to expect about us. It would help tremendously and maybe so many young butch lesbians wouldn't get so caught up in q-eer theory trying to accept their masculinity in their female bodies.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Here's my view: I'm fine with the other poster making statements about the butches she knows and has known.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What about the experiences you have as a butch lesbian? Care to share what you feel and what you experience? I'm not saying it's any more or less valid no matter what it happens to be. My point is that we should be the ones talking about it, and mostly others do so on our behalf.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I didn’t say that, you did.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I sure did. See how easy it can be for someone to take your statement in a way you didn't intend it? Most of the problem is online and text only communication, but also it's the lack of perspectives around us because so many choose to lurk and read instead of participate. We can only go by the vote counts to gauge the member's consensus on a matter, and I think that my speaking up is refreshing to many. I'm not calling you out as a person. I'm trying to help our community, and hopefully society on some level, speak up about their feelings, thoughts, and experiences no matter what they are. You described your own experience without indicating it was in fact your own experience. That can be taken out of context and be confusing for more vulnerable readers who are confused about their sexual identity.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Of course it’s my own experience. I’ve been out since 1996. I have known and loved many butches and gnc women and I am absolutely a part of the group. Straight people often think butch women are predatory man-wannabes. The opposite is true. You took it out of context. They often think all butches are misogynistic and aggressive and harmful. This is not true. Many I have known to be gentle, and more submissive than not in bed, and loving. These are not bad things to say, and I don’t mean ALL butches. Never once did I suggest I am some kind of authority on butches, if you think putting words in my mouth is defending the community instead of yourself, then that is troubling.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Why are you getting so defensive? I acknowledged that yes, myself, and others could take your words out of context. That's the point. The point is also that not enough butch lesbians are talking about butch lesbians. Fuck, straight women talk more about butch lesbians than butch lesbians. I'm not defending myself at all. I'm trying to start a conversation. You could've said anything else about butches and I would've responded the same way. If you're going to continue to escalate the hostility of your responses, I won't respond to them anymore.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I have not been hostile to you. If you want to talk about butch lesbians you are obviously able to do so as much as anyone. So can every butch woman on here. It would be nice to hear more from them. Telling me not to talk about lesbians, butch or femme or anyone, on our lesbian forum is not getting more butch voices heard, it’s just telling a woman not to talk. Maybe you’ll get more comments you identify with, or are more clear to you, from butches and not other lesbians on the thread you made. I hope so.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm trying to help our community, and hopefully society on some level, speak up about their feelings, thoughts, and experiences no matter what they are.

You literally told someone to stop talking when she was talking about her feelings, thoughts and experience.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't tell her to stop anything. I made a request about something that matters a lot to me.

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

In my experience a lot of this has also been what I have found as well. I think we are always struggling to describe the dynamics even with the relative scope of dynamics possible within lesbian relationships.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

You’re right. The only thing we can say for sure is lesbian relationships are not what outsiders assume, and especially butch/femme pairings.

In 2020 we have loads of people who are not lesbians, and sometimes not even women, in the community who are trying to make the butches and butch/femme stereotypes imagined by straight people into reality. It’s so gross. As if it’s not difficult enough to be a GNC woman, now this.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ugh yea all of the comments on AL and YouTube and everywhere that say things like “top energy” in response to the image of a butch or androgynous woman. Why are they assigning sexual roles based on appearance and how tf is that progressive?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know! It’s really harmful that so many gnc women automatically get classified as “top” or aggressive or whatever else simply because they are not feminine in traditional ways. You really don’t know what anyone likes just by looking at her

[–]FlanJam 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm jealous you were able to express what I was thinking in a few succinct sentences. Meanwhile I had to write a big wordy paragraph lol