all 73 comments

[–]writerlylesbian 38 insightful - 3 fun38 insightful - 2 fun39 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

Didn't read it all, stopped when it got to 'cis' lesbians and evol lesbian feminists.

What seems to have escaped the writer is that the reason it was formerly difficult to distinguish between lesbians and bi women is because women did not have independence or sexual autonomy. Very few women could survive without marriage, so it's virtually impossible to sit here hundreds of years later trying to guess which women having affairs were lesbians trapped in marriages or bisexual women who liked sex with both.

The era of second wave feminism and women's liberation, including women's sexual liberation, meant that lesbians started to be much more able to articulate and name their exclusive sexual attraction for women, as well as have the freedom to only pursue relationships with women. That started to make it pretty fucken' obvious which ones were the lesbians and which ones were the bisexuals.

I didn't even understand why she dragged butch/femme into the mess of an argument she was trying to make - that has always been something associated with lesbian culture, not bisexuals.

Edit: I finished reading it, because I'm a masochist. The gist of the argument seems to be: bisexuals have always hung around lesbians, therefore lesbians and bisexuals are indistinguishable, therefore lesbians don't own butch/femme, and a transwoman agrees with her so she's right. And the only reason lesbian-only culture/spaces existed in the 2nd wave was because evol radfems, not because feminism meant that tons of lesbians were suddenly able to come out of the closet and start their own communities.

But you can't expect much from someone who thinks they can fit the history of the evolution of lesbian identity into a twitter thread.

[–]VioletRemi 21 insightful - 5 fun21 insightful - 4 fun22 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Claiming the Past sounds to me like transgenders nowadays claiming that every strong woman was just a trans.

[–]writerlylesbian 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, it's so sexist. No woman could ever accomplish anything, so all the women who accomplished things were obviously men!! These people.

[–]knownasness 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

this is essentially what i came to post. i gave up half way through since they used 'terf'. it told me everything i needed to know about why the thread was actually made.

[–]writerlylesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's so tiring. But on the bright side - any time anyone starts using the special gender words, I know I can check right out because all I'll hear/read is a long spiel of homophobia vomit.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Butch / femme is lesbian and these people can fight me.

[–]writerlylesbian 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What I have always said about this for years is that - no one is stopping bisexuals from building their own culture, if that is what they want. They can create their own language, their own spaces, their own art or whatever that centres bisexuals. They can invite their partners/friends/whoever into their spaces, where their bisexuality is celebrated. But they absolutely never seem to want to do that. They just shimmy between the straight world and the gay world, depending on who they're dating. And that's fine if they want to do that, but they can't then complain about how they're exactly the same, or conversely 'invisible', depending on what they're pissed off about that day, and that everything that's gay really belongs to them too.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Whenever someone bisexual is complaining like that it just makes them seem less bisexual to me. Most women that spend time in the community should at least get that it’s different to be with women, and it’s just illogical to expect to be visibly bi when there is no way to be distinguished from straight people when you’re in a straight couple.

[–]writerlylesbian 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

agree. bisexuals who actually spend a decent amount of time around lesbians generally get it.

[–][deleted] 29 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

adore the implication that we want to get away from het males because we're ~evil demons~ & not because they insist we be attracted to them. i'm so sick of this shit lol.

[–]TalerTest 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is exactly what I was thinking. These people are incapable of understanding homosexuality.

[–]VioletRemi 12 insightful - 12 fun12 insightful - 11 fun13 insightful - 12 fun -  (9 children)

At least not this, lol: https://i.imgur.com/9lpLpwH.jpg

"Lesbian culture was created by transwomen".

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 6 fun14 insightful - 5 fun15 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Tbf trans women have influenced lesbian culture A LOT recently, thats why we are here and not on reddit lol

[–]VioletRemi 20 insightful - 6 fun20 insightful - 5 fun21 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

By "a lot" you mean pushing lesbians into the underground and hiding like 50 years ago?

And I am pretty sure porn influenced lesbians much more, as it created all those straight transwomen saying they are lesbians and dreaming about sex with lesbians - last few years "lesbian" porn is the most popular porn among men.

If I sound angry, then sorry, I am just tired and can't control my speech on other languages well.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Nah its cool, and you got what I meant.

Its all so crazy that sometimes I just feel like laughing at the absurdity of it all.

[–]Gearbeta 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

This is the same idiot who wrote an article on Autostraddle called "How to have lesbian sex with a transwoman"

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Reminded me one gaming LGBT channel in discord on League of Legends I was member of, when I was in Challenger there.

There were two "lesbians", who were asking gay man how to have sex if you both have dicks.

It was both really funny and really sad to see that. And then they were discussing porn, and I said that it is disgusting, and some random guy even commented "I have noticed that cis lesbians liking erotica more than porn". Which made situation even more sad. I said them to fuck off, ha ha.

Anyways, seems I am a bit too angry today, so I'll stop here :D

[–]Gearbeta 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

LOL oh man that sounds hilarious. Fucking "lesbian" gamer discords are filled to the brim with transbians and its so frustrating. I just want a cool actual lesbian to play games with.

[–]VioletRemi 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I just want a cool actual lesbian to play games with

Seems here a lot of us like that, ha ha.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not even surprising one bit. These assholes are doing such a disservice to bisexuals. They are behaving like heterosexual men and have decided that the lesbians they objectify are assholes for not being attracted to them and giving them what they want because they want it. There are differences between bisexual women and lesbians and in order for there to be a shared community, those differences must be acknowledged, understood as best as we can understand one another, and respected. Sexual and romantic orientation and attraction aren’t about moral goodness, open-mindedness, or entitlement. These people are poisoning the well for bisexual women and making it seem like lesbians are their enemy too and that they are entitled to access to lesbian’s spaces, bodies, and dating pools. Most lesbians will date a bisexual woman. Just not this kind of crazy entitled kind pushing an agenda.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

word salad. i'm convinced they're just throwing random buzzwords together to see what sticks. whatever gets a lot of likes must be the truth. everybody likes it so why not right. gay culture influenced by drag queens? absolutely. lesbian culture invented by fetishistic straight men? in what universe??????

[–]HelloMomo 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

Yes, there used to be less focus on orientation and more focus on behavior. But then modern bisexuals reverse-engineer it to add orientation back in and make it not behavior-based.

If bi women want to call themselves that in the context of dating women I don't really care. It's bi women dating men and calling themselves femme or whatever that bothers me.

[–]Gearbeta 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Yeah it feels like what's happening is in the past the bisexuals that were hanging around lesbians back then were the ones actually interested in having a serious relationship with another woman. And modern bisexuals are trying to use that to act like they belong with /deserve to be called lesbians/terms exclusive to lesbians despite some/most of them only being interested in men and only slightly being attracted to women. Back in those days, people like that would have been considered straight.

[–]florasis 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Bisexuals who just care about men are very common. A man who only got minimal same sex attraction would never call himself bisexual, but a woman does it, cause bisexuality is considered sexy for women. Then no wonder a lot of lesbian got an hate toward bisexual girls.

[–]VioletRemi 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Experience matters too, many lesbians I know who had relationship with bisexuals are saying that bisexuals almost always running back to men, often to same man they break up. My experience is somewhat the same. However, I know there are bisexuals who marrying women and very happy without the dick.

[–]Gearbeta 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Yeah there's cool bis out there but because wlw (sorry not quite sure how to word this) relationships are so sexualized and not taken seriously, women who imo should be considered straight are saying they're bi and will troll dating websites for a third, refuse to take relationships with women seriously (ex. my boyfriend says I can date women on the side but not men, expect lesbian partners to be men lite before breaking up and going back to men), and pretend to be lesbians when they're mad at their male ex. And there's zero chance that type of shit would have been welcomed in the lesbian/bisexual spaces of the past.

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

First ukrainian movie with lesbians that was shown on big screens was about that. It was mix of Sapphpo verses + some Hemingway novel.

One rich but lonely women was living on an island and was drawing pictures. Straight couple came there to have a rest, but woman in relationship (I will call her bisexual from now on) did not liked that man much. Rich woman (I will call her lesbian from nowon ) liked that woman and flirted a bit with her. Bisexual woman saw that lesbian have sexual interest with her and started relationship with her first. Man saw that coming, but was not interrupting (he thought it is not real sex and not cheating, I guess). Then near the end, bisexual decided to run with that man, leaving lesbian alone, lesbian jumped down to her death from the crag they first kissed.

Ukrainian song with clip from there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lBetYkmyd4

Lyrics are: Do you even know how it hurts? And it never goes away. And while whole World asleep - please kiss me" (or more like "be kissing me", meaning not one kiss, but kissing, until world awakes).

[–]florasis 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That's so shitty, my God

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah. I did not liked it much, but after knowing that many lesbians had similar experience with bisexual women, who just used them for short romance, I am much less critical to movie.

[–]florasis 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The bi women who got serious attraction toward women don't behave like that.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They don’t, but they are outnumbered by these others, it’s sad for them!

[–]mangosplums 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

reminds me of the movie lost & delirious

[–]florasis 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I had a good experience. she So, I'm not against dating bi. But it depends for person to person, the one who got a preferance toward men and prefer dating them because of being more attracted or being normal, are pretty bad experiences. But in general, the ones who got married with women got a female preferance

[–]VioletRemi 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am not against dating bi either, however it will need more time to check if she is really interested in me, or just bored.

[–]yousaythosethings 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep that’s exactly it. Just like transbians trying to claim the history of homosexual transsexuals through forced teaming. Heterosexual males attracted to lesbians were not part of the gay rights movement because they didn’t need gay rights ffs.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

A lesbian femme is a totally different woman than a heterosexual feminine woman, or bisexual feminine woman. These people don’t even understand lesbian relationship dynamics and their heads would literally explode if they knew many butches are the exact opposite of a male stereotype and even sexually submissive compared to their femme partners, if they are dating butch/femme. I love telling straight people that and watching the confusion

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Please stop speaking on behalf of butch lesbians.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I'm also butch and found her statement accurate.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good for you. You should be more vocal about your experiences as a butch lesbian. I made a post inviting others to do so. Maybe you should lend your thoughts and experiences, if you feel so inclined.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I’m speaking about the butch women I have known and had connections with in the real world, and I have every right to do so. I say “many,” not all. Don’t police me if you don’t like being policed.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You could have made that more clear in your comment. You actually have no idea if "many" is accurate or not. Lots of things play into these behaviors from location, culture, upbringing, mental health, etc. and to suggest that you alone can accurately estimate these things about a group of people that you aren't a part of seems excessive to me.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

What is your problem? All she said is "many" butches aren't male stereotypes or sexually dominant. What is possibly objectionable about that?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't have a problem. I invited you to share your views and experiences. If you don't want to, that's fine. The part I take issue with is letting one narrative dominate over others about butches or any demographic of people. We should speak up so people will know that there isn't a single archetype, or two or three, to expect about us. It would help tremendously and maybe so many young butch lesbians wouldn't get so caught up in q-eer theory trying to accept their masculinity in their female bodies.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Here's my view: I'm fine with the other poster making statements about the butches she knows and has known.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What about the experiences you have as a butch lesbian? Care to share what you feel and what you experience? I'm not saying it's any more or less valid no matter what it happens to be. My point is that we should be the ones talking about it, and mostly others do so on our behalf.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I didn’t say that, you did.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I sure did. See how easy it can be for someone to take your statement in a way you didn't intend it? Most of the problem is online and text only communication, but also it's the lack of perspectives around us because so many choose to lurk and read instead of participate. We can only go by the vote counts to gauge the member's consensus on a matter, and I think that my speaking up is refreshing to many. I'm not calling you out as a person. I'm trying to help our community, and hopefully society on some level, speak up about their feelings, thoughts, and experiences no matter what they are. You described your own experience without indicating it was in fact your own experience. That can be taken out of context and be confusing for more vulnerable readers who are confused about their sexual identity.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Of course it’s my own experience. I’ve been out since 1996. I have known and loved many butches and gnc women and I am absolutely a part of the group. Straight people often think butch women are predatory man-wannabes. The opposite is true. You took it out of context. They often think all butches are misogynistic and aggressive and harmful. This is not true. Many I have known to be gentle, and more submissive than not in bed, and loving. These are not bad things to say, and I don’t mean ALL butches. Never once did I suggest I am some kind of authority on butches, if you think putting words in my mouth is defending the community instead of yourself, then that is troubling.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Why are you getting so defensive? I acknowledged that yes, myself, and others could take your words out of context. That's the point. The point is also that not enough butch lesbians are talking about butch lesbians. Fuck, straight women talk more about butch lesbians than butch lesbians. I'm not defending myself at all. I'm trying to start a conversation. You could've said anything else about butches and I would've responded the same way. If you're going to continue to escalate the hostility of your responses, I won't respond to them anymore.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I have not been hostile to you. If you want to talk about butch lesbians you are obviously able to do so as much as anyone. So can every butch woman on here. It would be nice to hear more from them. Telling me not to talk about lesbians, butch or femme or anyone, on our lesbian forum is not getting more butch voices heard, it’s just telling a woman not to talk. Maybe you’ll get more comments you identify with, or are more clear to you, from butches and not other lesbians on the thread you made. I hope so.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm trying to help our community, and hopefully society on some level, speak up about their feelings, thoughts, and experiences no matter what they are.

You literally told someone to stop talking when she was talking about her feelings, thoughts and experience.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't tell her to stop anything. I made a request about something that matters a lot to me.

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

In my experience a lot of this has also been what I have found as well. I think we are always struggling to describe the dynamics even with the relative scope of dynamics possible within lesbian relationships.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

You’re right. The only thing we can say for sure is lesbian relationships are not what outsiders assume, and especially butch/femme pairings.

In 2020 we have loads of people who are not lesbians, and sometimes not even women, in the community who are trying to make the butches and butch/femme stereotypes imagined by straight people into reality. It’s so gross. As if it’s not difficult enough to be a GNC woman, now this.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ugh yea all of the comments on AL and YouTube and everywhere that say things like “top energy” in response to the image of a butch or androgynous woman. Why are they assigning sexual roles based on appearance and how tf is that progressive?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know! It’s really harmful that so many gnc women automatically get classified as “top” or aggressive or whatever else simply because they are not feminine in traditional ways. You really don’t know what anyone likes just by looking at her

[–]FlanJam 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm jealous you were able to express what I was thinking in a few succinct sentences. Meanwhile I had to write a big wordy paragraph lol

[–]yayblueberries 15 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I find it all tiresome and wonder why people can't just let lesbians live their lives without all of this.

[–]oofreesouloo 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Omg, exaaaactly.

[–]Gearbeta 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

uh... maybe its just me but I haven't heard anyone credit Anne Lister with the term femme, is that a thing or did they just pull it out of their ass?

[–]oofreesouloo 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Omg can we stop for one sec associating lesbianism with politics/feminism/etc? Jeez

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It gets kind of tiring how politicized our sexuality is sometimes. I just want to love women in peace, god!

[–]votkriscan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh my gosh. Every time when I lapse into the faulty line of thought that the gender/identity/trans goon squad might not be so bad, this comes along to remind me to never be that silly again. First, the invasion of lesbian spaces. Next, the invasion of how women are attracted to other women. What is so difficult to understand that these and similar "labels" are about the varieties of lesbian/bi women and NOT about sexual orientation or gender? I'm really beginning to think I'm right when I once mentioned that it's mostly straight people who have moved themselves into "LGBT". This is why they have such difficulty fathoming attraction between women.

And this has nothing to do with "lesbians vs bisexual". Over where I am (little to no gender/identity/trans widespread rubbish), bisexuals have far more common sense and they just comfortably slip into these "labels" if it's applicable to them or they just don't use any if they find that it doesn't suit them, just like other lesbians who might not want to be either femme or butch, for example.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, this person doesn't know what they're talking about.

This thread is full of misinformation while oversimplifying history and concepts so much that it ends up failing on near every level. So much of it is factually incorrect. The conflation of lesbian-feminism, political lesbianism, homosexuality, and bisexuality show me the OP has a very surface level understanding of feminist and LB women's history.

[–]winterwillow 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah it's a very long thread to basically say 'homosexual rich white cis women = bad' 'queer working class wlw of color = good'. What actually happened is much less important than being as intersectional as possible.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

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      [–]Innisfree 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Even my 8th great-grandparents cringed at that :)

      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      If their main sources are tumblr that’s ugggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh until the end of the world.

      [–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Shit ton of revisionist bullshit wrapped in one poorly written package. All TRAs on twitter seem to be giant raging homophobes and quickly show this and even brag about it to their friends, like its something they earn?

      [–]FlanJam 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      First of all a disclaimer: I'm by no means an expert in lgbt history so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

      Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the historical points she is making are necessarily incorrect, but the way she frames things are kinda skewed towards her own narrative. The big point she's making is that lesbian culture pre 60s always included bi women. The problem is that this isn't quite right, even if I take every thing she says at face value. The thing is, not all bi women were included in lesbian culture. Bi women in relationships with women were included. The vast majority of bi women (those in relationships with men) were considered straight. So by her own logic, only SOME bi women (those in relationships with women) can use butch and femme. But she conveniently left that point out.

      All that being said, I don't have a super strong stance on the butch/femme debate. All I can say for sure is that it would be really really really weird for a woman with a boyfriend to call herself butch.