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[–]book_hoarder 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Look, I know where you're coming from. I also grew up in the middle of the gay marriage debate. I met my wife while she was in the military during Don't Ask Don't Tell. I had a high school history teacher who, out-of-the-blue, compared homosexuality to paedophilia on the first day of class. I grew up in a Catholic household where I was regularly told that women who don't have babies are selfish and will come to regret it one day. I just got back from my sister's wedding, where my father called my marriage "disordered" in front of the priest just to get those sweet, sweet, Catholic good-boy points. I had a cousin who grilled me about my sexual orientation for hours, in front of all my brother's friends, because "how do I know I don't like dick if I never tried it?" I've had friends, other family members, coworkers, and even strangers tell me the same thing. And now we have the TQ+ crowd on Twitter telling lesbians that if they don't want to have sex with men or if they have an aversion to dick, there's something wrong with them. Everyone everywhere acts like it's completely unfathomable for a woman to not like dick because it doesn't fit in with their narrow ideas of the world. I get where your frustration comes from and why this is all so upsetting for you because I've been there. All my life, I have dealt with the same exact shit.

That being said, I read the thread that you are referring to, and I don't think that anyone is saying that lesbians should be, or generally are, ok with sleeping with men, nor do I think that anyone is implying that the definition of "lesbian" itself should be expanded to include women who seek out and enjoy having sex with men. I think the point of contention is with the idea that not all lesbians have an active aversion to men and heterosexual intercourse to the point that it would be repulsive and potentially traumatizing to even attempt it. While such may be the case with you (and me and my wife and plenty of other lesbians), I do believe there are some lesbians out there who have engaged in heterosexuality at some point in their lives without experiencing strong feelings towards either extreme, good or bad. I mean, think about it, we live in a society where it's normal for straight women to not experience orgasm during sex 50-60% of the time. We live in a society where a woman's pleasure in bed is merely an afterthought, and she's more likely to get most of her satisfaction from a vibrator than her own male partner. I can 100% believe it possible for a lesbian to have prior relationships with men just based on the fact that even straight women settle when it comes to their sex lives. If your sex life is just as unsatisfying as all the other straight women around you, why would you suspect that there was anything amiss?

Like someone else said in the comments, everyone experiences their sexuality differently. Some people know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are only attracted to the same sex and want nothing to do with the opposite sex. Other people are so numb to their own emotions and desires (often due to childhood trauma) that they have no clue what they want until they've experienced it. It doesn't invalidate you or your feelings or your experiences. It doesn't make you a freak. It just means that people are different and have lived different lives and may take longer to come to the same conclusion that came so easily to you. There's nothing wrong with that.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Like I said "The quick, in a matter of minutes, responses of me saying that lesbians can't be fine with having sex with men, with a wave of saying they've had sex with men, or they don't mind or don't find men repulsive, which got worse when I said I've never been with men, says otherwise. If that community is full of women who have been with men and are fine with it, or who become defensive when a woman is has not been involved with men, if that's what the lesbian community is about, I want nothing to do with them. I'm not going to sleep with men, ever. They won, they can have the word "lesbian." That community is full of women discussing having sex with men, men, and is pointless anyway." I never said anything that you mentioned in any of those posts. But guess what? It was still filled with how they had sex with men, and they pursued men, and were fine with it.

implying that the definition of "lesbian" itself should be expanded to include women who seek out and enjoy having sex with men

If lesbians can have sex with men and be fine with it, then they have extended the meaning to include that, great job everyone. As you said "I think the point of contention is with the idea that not all lesbians have an active aversion to men and heterosexual intercourse to the point that it would be repulsive and potentially traumatizing to even attempt it." Never even said anything about that either. But if lesbians are fine with having sex with men, then that's apart of being a lesbian. I'm not ever going to be apart of that community again. It's just about having sex with men anyway, so I'm done. I only like women, I only want to be with women, I've only been with women, the lesbian community isn't about that anymore. I'm done. I tired of hearing about having sex with men or dating men. Lesbian now just means bi or febfem, not for me.

Like I said lesbians can talk about having sex with men all they want now. I'm not going to be apart of the lesbian community anymore. I'm not calling myself a lesbian anymore. I don't consider myself a lesbian anymore. I fully believe there isn't hope for lesbians now.

[–]book_hoarder 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I mean, if you want to redefine yourself just because some women who call themselves lesbians don't feel exactly the same way you do, suit yourself.

I fully believe there isn't hope for lesbians now.

I've been out as a lesbian for the past 17 years, and I promise you, no one has showed up to my house and tried to shove a dick down my throat just because a handful of bisexual women have appropriated the label.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I mean, if you want to redefine yourself just because some women who call themselves lesbians don't feel exactly the same way you do, suit yourself.

Well it's constantly happening every day lesbians saying they have sex with men, even here people are supporting it. So yeah, lesbian means bi now, I'm not bi.

I've been out as a lesbian for the past 17 years, and I promise you, no one has showed up to my house and tried to shove a dick down my throat just because a handful of bisexual women have appropriated the label.

I never said that. Just lesbian has lost it meaning, and it just means bisexual now. I think everyone commenting on this just wants to take me out of context. Also, it's not just a handful of bi women, it's cute you think that tho. I also like that you agree these are bi women, k.

[–]book_hoarder 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There is a difference between a woman who "has sex with men" (present tense) and a woman who "has had sex with men" (past tense). Most people here would agree with you that the former is not a lesbian (in most cases), but the latter potentially is.

I think everyone commenting on this just wants to take me out of context

Or perhaps you aren't stating your grievances very clearly? You posted those two comments in your thread about lesbophobia on Ovarit and I, like everyone else, was left scratching my head over what was so 'phobic about it.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Or perhaps you aren't stating your grievances very clearly? You posted those two comments in your thread about lesbophobia on Ovarit and I, like everyone else, was left scratching my head over what was so 'phobic about it.

It was a screenshot of a Ovarit user saying some lesbians are fine with having sex with men. Wtf. You guys are either so deep in the woke homophobia, or you aren't exclusively same-sex attracted. I guess you just don't like me calling that bs out because you all agree with it.

[–]book_hoarder 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What I read in that screenshot was one woman talking about how some lesbians might be able to tolerate sex with men by dissociating from it (which is actually a common trauma response...), and another woman talking about how she never wanted to have sex with her boyfriend in the past, but didn't think she was a lesbian because she was "able to grin and bear it." None of that sounds like they were "fine with having sex with men." It sounds like they were forcing themselves to have sex they didn't want because they were socially conditioned to believe that they should. Which is heartbreaking.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The first woman was saying there are two types of lesbians, they weren't talking about social conditioning they were stating some lesbians are ok with having sex with men, that what she wrote. If she was talking about what your projecting she wouldve said that, not that there is a "type of lesbian." The other one admitted she was wrong later, just saw that right now, so I'll leave her out.

The first one said there's a distinction and then "lesbians who aren't repulsed by sex with men." You put that in her mouth. Never said anything about pressure or being made to. Just that some lesbians are fine having sex with men. Which to me is lesbophobic, but people here say it's true so

I wonder why everyone commenting about this keeps moving the goal post btw. I've stayed by position but everyone keeps saying I said other things or talking about things that weren't what the post was about. It wasn't

  1. About societal pressure
  2. Experimenting
  3. Liking dick

It was about how there isn't two types of lesbians, that being one that is fine with sleeping with men. You and huffle made it about those things, because idk why insecure about sleeping with men?