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[–][deleted] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Look girl, I'm bisexual, and even * I KNOW * there's a battle between gold star lesbians and other lesbians in the community. Your responses to this post, and the other you shared, are evidence of that.

You don't accept anyone other than "gold star" as being a lesbian, and that's OK. But you don't get to bring that battle here. You don't get to throw a tantrum when others have compassion for late-bloomers, you don't get to blame lesbians for internalized homophobia or comphet, you don't get to prescribe intent and put words in our users mouths that they didn't say, and you sure as hell don't get to invalidate lesbian struggles growing up and recognizing their homosexuality just because it didn't match your timeline or awareness.

You can be true to yourself without gaslighting everyone here. If you need to leave, then go, and we wish you well. The door is open for if or whenever you want to return, but it can't be like this.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Don't give a fuck what other people think. Not even what other lesbians think. Just live your life honestly and let the people who don't like it seethe. Be unapologetic and learn to respect and love yourself. Take joy in the fact that stupid people are upset over the fact that you're a lesbian who's never had sex with men.

Signed, a gay man who's never dated nor had sex with women. And never will.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the supportive comment. I've come to realization that even though I don't call myself a lesbian anymore I'm still more of a lesbian than them for not ever sleeping with men, *didn't give into homophobic views, and always knowing I'm attracted solely to women lol.

Even though lesbian is supposed to mean a homosexual woman the "lesbian" community is filled with women that have been with men and were fine with it, *even view it as a natural process of being a lesbian, or they never knew they liked women, and constant discussions about how they slept with men. That's not me. They can have that weirdly men centric community.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You’re welcome. Stay sincere.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think anyone here thinks lesbians are ok with men, but there are situations, like getting married when you haven't come to terms with yourself, where you do things you won't do ever again when you realize you are gay/lesbian. Bt that has nothing to do with what we call the assault on homosexuality, I.E. you should try to work around dick because it saves a trans life sniff

Theres alot of different opinions here, as we are officially cut off and cannot receive our opinions from the head lgbtq+ office. They aren't worth isolating yourself over. I'd be willing to discuss more because that's the fun part of unmodded speech here. I wouldn't let it drive you away. I kind of understand why the hypothetical straight situation can be bad for us in straight circles, like people who think they are being edgy by saying they CHOOSE to be gay. I don't think the people here believe there's certain situations where lesbians go after dick.

[–]MyLongestJourney 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

I've gotten criticisms for never being with men

On the thread? Where ? I read it multiple times and I haven't seen such a thing.

My past experiences, the current mass erasure, and lesbophobia from my "own" has made me, for the first time in my life, not want to call myself a lesbian

Cheers erupt from a certain Greek island's location.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Like I said with Red- I've come to realization that even though I don't call myself a lesbian anymore I'm still more of a lesbian than them for not ever sleeping with men, didn't give into homophobic views, and always knowing I'm attracted solely to women lol.

You have your community of women that are fine sleeping with men. Have fun.

[–]MyLongestJourney 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There is a percentage of women who are completely homosexual and did sleep with men, for a variety of reasons which do not include sexual attraction and pleasure. Some did it in order to conform,others because they wanted a family,others because they were in a very deep denial,others because they did not want to hurt their parents etc.In some countries you can bet they did it in order to survive.That does not mean they were "fine" sleeping with men.

PS.Sometimes I get the uncomfortable feeling some posters here are agents provocateur and their sole goal for posting here is to destroy this community (and the huge thorn in the TRAs side that is gender critical feminism) by sowing discord.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There is a percentage of women who are completely homosexual and did sleep with men, for a variety of reasons which do not include sexual attraction and pleasure. Some did it in order to conform,others because they wanted a family and others because they were in a very deep denial,others because they did not want to hurt their parents etc.In some countries you can bet they did it in order to survive.That does not mean they were "fine" sleeping with men.

Initial post didn't talk about this at all, it's still up so people can see how you're blatantly lying. You didn't even say any of this in your comments. Your original comment was "I do not see any lesbophobia and I belong to the lesbian-repulsed-by-dick category. Care to explain why is it lesbophobic to point out that some lesbians are not repulsed by dick ,it just does nothing for them sexually?" Even though the original post didn't talk about dick. I guess you were just thinking about it at the time. Which most lesbians seem to do now. Why I'm not a lesbian anymore.

And then when I got tired of it all and said I'm no longer calling myself a lesbian you cheered it on. Just remember I'm still more of a lesbian than them for not ever sleeping with men, didn't give into homophobic views, and always knowing I'm attracted solely to women. The initial post wasn't about this, you and everyone else made it about this. Have fun with the lesbian community, sleeping with men, thinking about them and dating them. I'm going to be with women.

[–]MyLongestJourney 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Initial post didn't talk about this at all, it's still up so people can see how you're blatantly lying.

Oh,someone is lying and this is not me. I read the rest of your post and I am not even going to engage with you anymore. I just hope the rest of the members here have the good sense to just ignore you as well.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah anyone can see it https://imgur.com/3IG3Y8F

No mention of dick, just you. Everyone can see your replies as well.

[–]juoreally tired woman 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

They never said your feelings weren't valid or that lesbian do dicks as a national sport. It's a talk about something that happened in the past... There's nothing that "slided", people have different experiences in life, don't stop calling yourself a lesbian over that... You're not a freak and you're perfectly fine the way you are, come on.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Athelhilda4: I’ve never thought of it this way, and I agree. Sometimes I feel that the born this way narrative and the stories of gay people who knew they were gay at six year olds has created a culture where late bloomers are met with suspicion. Not everyone has a strong sex drive with obvious attraction.

MyLongestJourney: I do not see any lesbophobia and I belong to the lesbian-repulsed-by-dick category. Care to explain why is it lesbophobic to point out that some lesbians are not repulsed by dick ,it just does nothing for them sexually?

The quick, in a matter of minutes, responses of me saying that lesbians can't be fine with having sex with men, with a wave of saying they've had sex with men, or they don't mind or don't find men repulsive, which got worse when I said I've never been with men, says otherwise. If that community is full of women who have been with men and are fine with it, or who become defensive when a woman is has not been involved with men, if that's what the lesbian community is about, I want nothing to do with them. I'm not going to sleep with men, ever. They won, they can have the word "lesbian." That community is full of women discussing having sex with men, men, and is pointless anyway.

[–]juoreally tired woman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I don't understand the need of finding men repulsive to be a lesbian. That's such a strong word for humans you're clearly not into... It gives them way too much credit. Focus on women instead and don't bother yourself. Overall being a lesbian seems to be about finding women attractive, loving them and ignoring men, isn't it ? You're making it about men yourself by taking in consideration the bullshit of political lesbian and so on imo... Fuck that shit. Celebrate what and who you love. But your frustration is also understable with the actual climate so... I don't know. Hope you'll get to feel better about all that.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't understand the need of finding men repulsive to be a lesbian. That's such a strong word for humans you're clearly not into... It gives them way too much credit.

This. When I first came out at 15, I wasn't repulsed by guys. I just wasn't attracted to them and was attracted to women. Now I am dick-repulsed but I think that has more to do with forcing myself to be sexual with them despite my body not enjoying it or wanting it and now I have a kneejerk disgust at the thought of even being near a naked man. I went from complete disinterest in men to revulsion because no one would accept my lack of interest until I began to express my revulsion (after forcing myself to "try it out"). Lack of interest/complete disinterest should be enough, women don't have to hate men to want to be with only women. We are allowed to pursue only what we want!!

The lack of attraction to men combined with an attraction to women is all it takes to be a lesbian, if it's just a lack of attraction to men and no attraction to women, she'd be asexual. Straight people are allowed to just not want to be with the same-sex without having to be repulsed by the idea of same-sex genitalia, why can't homosexuals do the same??

[–]juoreally tired woman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Leave it, she's obviously very hurt and angry. I don't blame her, the LGBT community let us all down and "being strong" is damn hard when you feel isolated. Trusting people when all they do is crush your feelings and ideas is very hard. I myself have my angry moments. I am very angry against women in general for letting other women down. Most of them don't care about GNC/homosexual women and they've opened their arms to the TQ+ while being a huge part of it. Fucking she/they. Fucking non binaries. Fucking trans this, trans that. Anything to reject womanhood and spit on the ones holding to it. They broke my heart. Not that men have done anything better, but I don't care about what they think a woman is. I do care about what women think of women tho. Women betraying other women hurts more. It's soul crushing. So I don't know if she feels that kind of hurt, but leave it. Maybe she'll feel better and hear your words later.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The amount of comments of people talking about lesbians having sex with men just proves my point. The lesbian community is this now. I really wished you stop talking about sleeping with men. Take it somewhere else, away from me.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's about being repulsed (pushed away) or turned off by men, and being attracted to women. Febfems aren't lesbians by definition. Lesbians aren't into men, or I thought that's what it meant. If "lesbians" are fine with men, then it's not a group for me. No offense, truly, but you're bi and I don't think you can really understand how this feels to have "your own" tell you you're some kind of outlier, or that lesbians can be with men. You have a bigger group and more people you can relate to, I don't, 'lesbian' have lost all meaning, my community thinks I weird for not being with men, and me saying lesbians aren't fine with sleeping with men is controversial. There's no point anymore. I'm not sleeping with men, I haven't slept with men, the "lesbian" community isn't for me.

[–]juoreally tired woman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really no, I don't have "a bisexual community" I rely on. And a lot of women who call themselve bi are a fucking joke (no offense to the ladies of the sub, I'm just not impressed with the "i kissed a girl once when i was drunk and enjoyed it so now i'm bi" storyline. don't care about that kind of experiences and never will, fuck that). I do not discuss my female attraction to anybody because I have clearly no trust in LGBT places so... Whatever. You're upset (rightfully) I get it, and I'll never understand you. My point is, you do you and fuck anybody who wants to make you feel like shit because of your homosexuality. I'll leave you alone now.

[–]Treeofthoughts 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I have read through the thread:

So I think this is a genuine difference in how people experience their sexual orientation. I suspect I experience mine more similar to you, I am not only attracted to other men, I am actively Unattracted to women. But I am aware for some gay men that they simply lack positive attraction to women, so heterosexual sex is possible, hence the straight marriages etc. I don’t consider them bi because they only have same sex attraction, but don’t have that additional feeling that I experience towards the opposite sex (in a sexual context).

Having talked to some gay guys in that camp has helped me understand why I can feel very different to them. I couldn’t wrap my head around gay men who had had sex with women before, or been married for years and still said they were gay. But that’s because there was something different about how their sexuality worked. The feeling of wrongness about heterosexual sex is at least as strong as the feeling of rightness about gay sex for me, so it was difficult for me to understand gay men who didn’t experience that feeling at all!

However the pressure on women in relation to sex by society is different.

[–]Athelhilda4Questioning 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I would also like to point out that it’s possible to force oneself to do things that you don’t enjoy or even find disgusting.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm happy I never did that to myself. I never forced myself to do something disgusting.

[–]Bright_paintingLoad, lesbian biologist 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm one of the lesbians who forced herself to have sex with a guy in her early teenage years. I would say that if anyone is giving you shit for being brave enough to listen to your heart and not give into the expectations of everyone around you, they are just jealous and bitter that you didn't go through that quite traumatizing experience that they forced themselves into.

[–]MyLongestJourney 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You wouldn't say though that you are fine with sleeping with men and that makes you a lesser type of lesbian? Because this is how OP sees your experience. Just read her previous thread. I never slept with a man,but I am not militant/purist with lesbians who did.Because I am able understand many women forced themselves to sleep with men for a variety of non sexual reasons.

[–]Treeofthoughts 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To use some modern languague - being true to who you are is no bad thing!

[–]Treeofthoughts 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also true.

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Though men have to keep their member functioning the whole time, so there's no "lay back and think of England" option... I do think the Kinsey scale or something like it is useful to communicate a range.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I can't speak for anyone else from the other thread but I can say for myself, I didn't mean lesbians can like dick, I just mean that accepting yourself as a lesbian is hard. We live in a patriarchal world that tells girls from birth that their wants, needs and desires are secondary to a man's, that her purpose is to be a man's wife/homemaker/baby factory someday. It is hard to cancel out all that noise and tune into what your body actually wants. It was for me. I shared conversations I've had with other lesbians who were at different places of acceptance themselves, even if I didn't understand where they were coming from or how they could stomach being with a man after they "accepted" they were lesbians, I understand the world that lead to their mindset and I feel like part of being out and proud now means assuring those women that being a lesbian means they don't have to put up with dick, they are allowed to pursue their desires only and not use their body as a public service for any scrote who shows up and shows interest in her.

I don't think you're weird for never having been w a man and for knowing you were gay at a young age. I do think that you're an outlier but not because you're weird, it's because we live in such a lesbophobic hellworld, not many gurls and young women have the confidence to stand firm in their sexual orientation when everyone around them is chipping away at their boundaries. I admire that you and other gold stars do have that confidence --more young lesbians need to see gold star role models so they know they don't have to accept males into their romantic and sexual lives. It's hard to be out and proud as a teenager.

I came out at 15 too, and I couldn't handle it. The only girl I liked got a boyfriend and cut me out of her life, my family and friends gave me hell for being a lesbian and told me it was due to my trauma and that I couldn't really know if I'd never been with anyone before. I crumpled, I doubted myself and ignored my feelings and went back in the closet with the first boy that showed interest in me. Looking back, I regret not trusting myself and staying out, but I don't regret the path I went on that lead me to being out and proud as a lesbian now. That path includes sexual encounters with men, that I'm still trying to heal from, but it also includes my first kiss with a woman, falling in love with my first girlfriend and finally having sex that I wanted to be present for. I'd never regret meeting my first girlfriend or any of the women I've been with since her.

I'm sorry if my reply made you feel like lesbians were supporting the "lesbians can like dick" brigade. I understand lesbians with a history with men is a touchy subject in our community, especially rn with polilez, bi lesbians and male lesbians flooding all of our spaces. I just don't want to shut the door on women who have struggled to accept themselves and embrace their lesbianism without apology or preamble.

Eta: also I think many lesbians who are like my friends use sex with men as a punishment or self-harm. It's not normal to only have sex when you need to be blackout drunk or high or to use sex as a way to dissociate. To me, it's like the lesbians who transition as a form of self-harm, but more passive. She believes she "deserves" to be hurt because she's ashamed of herself and hates her desires.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I don't care anymore. You defended them, you started the whole conversation that sent a bunch people after me for saying lesbians don't like having sex with men. Apparently lesbians are fine with being with men, and it's normal. I'm not a lesbian anymore. You and other lesbians can talk about having sex with men all you want. I'm done with this. I'm not a lesbian. I've left the community.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm not a lesbian. I've left the community.

I think this is the heart of where we disagree. I don't think a lesbian can be "not a lesbian". Female homosexuals are lesbians whether we ever accept it or not. Whether we want to be part of the "lesbian community" or not. That's part of the thing about being closeted--if a lesbian stays in the closet her whole life and is married to a man, if she's only attracted to women and hates being with a man, wishes she could be with a woman or "become a man to be with a woman" or even if she never allows herself to look at her feelings and desires too closely to ever accept her homosexuality, she's a lesbian whether she ever accepts it or lives in a society where she can act on those desires or not. Lesbians for the vast majority of history have been forced to partner with men, only recently have we had the freedoms to build lesbian communities and lives out in the open. It is a privilege to accept your homosexuality, it is a privilege to be out and proud, that's why we have a responsibility to make it easier for younger lesbians to accept and embrace their homosexuality.

I think it does a disservice to the reality of being a lesbian in a patriarchal world to pretend that it's as easy as never wanting to be with a man and being able to never be with one. In a world where girls and women are bombarded with boyfriends and dicks and babies from cradle to grave, being a lesbian is hard. Surviving as a gold star is even harder.

Never once did I say lesbians enjoy sex with men or that it's normal for a lesbian to be with a man. I said it was weird of my friends to say that shit and I told them they didn't have to pander to males as a lesbian, they're bodies are not public playthings. I said it's normal for lesbians to fall prey to the pressure to be with a man, especially when they are young and naive. Female socialization is a helluva drug and it is turned up to 11 for lesbians because the biggest part of female socialization is the idea that women are first and foremost male property and we should please them, our desires be damned. Otherwise the trans bs wouldn't be having such a devestating effect on young lesbians but it is, because they want to "be kind and give him a chance and be accepting and open and accommodating to oppressed people".

Lesbian: female homosexual; a woman who only wants to be with other women. It's disingenuous to pretend that we are not targeted and harassed and erased for being lesbians and that we face no pressure to be bisexual/heterosexual. I'm only saying that many lesbians fall for the abuse and have slept with men, NOT that it is ok. But I have compassion for them because at the end of the day, they're the ones who have to live with that trauma. It was never an attack on you or gold stars, just a defense of non-gold star lesbians.

Eta: what is the point of a community if we can't have uncomfortable conversations about the reality we all have to face, even if it's shitty?? It's not right that young lesbians feel like they aren't allowed to just be lesbians or not include men in their sex lives or like their worth is tied up with including men, but it is the world we live in and it doesn't help any of us to look away from those young women and say "you're not really a lesbian. You actually should go call yourself bi and keep having sex you hate". I try to speak up and share my story so younger lesbians understand they don't have to traumatize themselves trying to fit into a box someone else made for them

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think this is the heart of where we disagree. I don't think a lesbian can be "not a lesbian". Female homosexuals are lesbians whether we ever accept it or not. Whether we want to be part of the "lesbian community" or not.

I want nothing to do with them. Too much of talk about having sex with men. Lesbian doesn't mean any of that anymore.

It was never an attack on you or gold stars, just a defense of non-gold star lesbians.

I never said you attack me, just defend lesbians being fine with having sex with men, like the initial post said. I know you defended lesbians sleeping with men. I never talked about anything you said in that post, at all. YOU brought that up, because YOU have to push having sex with men onto everything and everyone else. YOU haven't stopped talking about having sex with men to me and on my posts. I don't care that you sleep with men, but keep it to yourself, I don't want to hear it. Be around "lesbian" that have sex with men as much as you want, just leave me out of it. You're apart of the problem.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I was trying to have a civil conversation but what I'm not gonna do is put up with YOU trying to say I have sex with men or that I'm part of the problem. I do not have sex with men and I never will again because I've accepted that I'm a lesbian. I am only saying that lesbians are pressured to have sex with men and not everyone is as confident and strong as YOU are to be a gold star. Who does it help to pretend that lesbians aren't under immense pressure to be with men?? That's the root of Lesbophobia, that we are women who don't want to partner with men. I'm not gonna lie or pretend that lesbians don't have to deal with that or say that lesbians who have struggled with that aren't real lesbians, that's bullshit and it only hurts the actual lesbians struggling to accept their homosexuality. YOU are the one acting like dick is some magical thing that'll mark a woman as "not a lesbian" if she's ever interacted with one. Women are allowed to struggle with their sexuality and regret our sexual choices, realize that we aren't attracted to men and move on and accept our actual sexuality. Lesbians are allowed to say dumb shit around other lesbians on our path to accepting ourselves,I don't fault my friends for sharing their internalized homophobia. We are not marked because we've been with men in the past. I'm not saying bisexuals or febfems are lesbians, I'm saying that lesbians have a hard time fully accepting ourselves, not everyone knew they were gay at 15. Some of us have to learn things the hard way, by living and experiencing things and sorting the good from the bad, the societal bs from our actual self.

This is my last reply cus clearly we're not on the same wavelength.

Eta: yes, please do read my replies on the other post and this post! I'm not talking about the joys of having sex with men, I'm talking about how it traumatizes lesbians, why many young lesbians fall into these traumatizing situations and why we should have spaces for lesbians to talk about the reality of this! If we can't discuss the causes and effects of Lesbophobia on lesbians struggling with their sexuality, both internalized and external, in a lesbian community, what's the point of having a lesbian community?? How tf are we ever going to solve these problems and heal our community, if we ignore the reality of what's being done, to who and why?? I'm not going to play pretend that no lesbian has ever felt coerced, by an individual or society at large, to be with a man.

[–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

She is just baiting you in a fight. Just ignore her.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Just so everyone knows the post is still up, and you can see how she brought up lesbian being ok with having sex with men out of nowhere, and how she hasn't stop talking about her and her friends having sex with men to me and on my posts. The original post was about a bisexual woman said there are two types of lesbians, one being fine with being with men, I thought it was bs. Huffle defended it, then a bunch of lesbians said they sleep with men, and are fine with it.

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just wanted to say, as bad as it seems to you now, just remember that not all that long ago you would not have even really been able to come up with the idea of "lesbian" in high school, at least not as anything other than a direct insult, and you certainly would not have proclaimed it openly... maybe at a progressive college you'd have found some other women and started figuring it out, but plenty of people would have had a lot to say about how you just hadn't tried sleeping with the right men & you almost certainly would have tried it at some point just bc that was what counted as sex. Being a "gold star lesbian" was truly unusual bc that meant you figured out you were gay before you became sexually active...

So it sucks that things are going backwards instead of forwards, but we really have gone way forwards in the last few decades, and we're not as far back as before the gay rights movement at least :). It's pretty cool you've got confidence and comfort with yourself and an ability to find others like you.

[–]book_hoarder 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Look, I know where you're coming from. I also grew up in the middle of the gay marriage debate. I met my wife while she was in the military during Don't Ask Don't Tell. I had a high school history teacher who, out-of-the-blue, compared homosexuality to paedophilia on the first day of class. I grew up in a Catholic household where I was regularly told that women who don't have babies are selfish and will come to regret it one day. I just got back from my sister's wedding, where my father called my marriage "disordered" in front of the priest just to get those sweet, sweet, Catholic good-boy points. I had a cousin who grilled me about my sexual orientation for hours, in front of all my brother's friends, because "how do I know I don't like dick if I never tried it?" I've had friends, other family members, coworkers, and even strangers tell me the same thing. And now we have the TQ+ crowd on Twitter telling lesbians that if they don't want to have sex with men or if they have an aversion to dick, there's something wrong with them. Everyone everywhere acts like it's completely unfathomable for a woman to not like dick because it doesn't fit in with their narrow ideas of the world. I get where your frustration comes from and why this is all so upsetting for you because I've been there. All my life, I have dealt with the same exact shit.

That being said, I read the thread that you are referring to, and I don't think that anyone is saying that lesbians should be, or generally are, ok with sleeping with men, nor do I think that anyone is implying that the definition of "lesbian" itself should be expanded to include women who seek out and enjoy having sex with men. I think the point of contention is with the idea that not all lesbians have an active aversion to men and heterosexual intercourse to the point that it would be repulsive and potentially traumatizing to even attempt it. While such may be the case with you (and me and my wife and plenty of other lesbians), I do believe there are some lesbians out there who have engaged in heterosexuality at some point in their lives without experiencing strong feelings towards either extreme, good or bad. I mean, think about it, we live in a society where it's normal for straight women to not experience orgasm during sex 50-60% of the time. We live in a society where a woman's pleasure in bed is merely an afterthought, and she's more likely to get most of her satisfaction from a vibrator than her own male partner. I can 100% believe it possible for a lesbian to have prior relationships with men just based on the fact that even straight women settle when it comes to their sex lives. If your sex life is just as unsatisfying as all the other straight women around you, why would you suspect that there was anything amiss?

Like someone else said in the comments, everyone experiences their sexuality differently. Some people know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are only attracted to the same sex and want nothing to do with the opposite sex. Other people are so numb to their own emotions and desires (often due to childhood trauma) that they have no clue what they want until they've experienced it. It doesn't invalidate you or your feelings or your experiences. It doesn't make you a freak. It just means that people are different and have lived different lives and may take longer to come to the same conclusion that came so easily to you. There's nothing wrong with that.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Like I said "The quick, in a matter of minutes, responses of me saying that lesbians can't be fine with having sex with men, with a wave of saying they've had sex with men, or they don't mind or don't find men repulsive, which got worse when I said I've never been with men, says otherwise. If that community is full of women who have been with men and are fine with it, or who become defensive when a woman is has not been involved with men, if that's what the lesbian community is about, I want nothing to do with them. I'm not going to sleep with men, ever. They won, they can have the word "lesbian." That community is full of women discussing having sex with men, men, and is pointless anyway." I never said anything that you mentioned in any of those posts. But guess what? It was still filled with how they had sex with men, and they pursued men, and were fine with it.

implying that the definition of "lesbian" itself should be expanded to include women who seek out and enjoy having sex with men

If lesbians can have sex with men and be fine with it, then they have extended the meaning to include that, great job everyone. As you said "I think the point of contention is with the idea that not all lesbians have an active aversion to men and heterosexual intercourse to the point that it would be repulsive and potentially traumatizing to even attempt it." Never even said anything about that either. But if lesbians are fine with having sex with men, then that's apart of being a lesbian. I'm not ever going to be apart of that community again. It's just about having sex with men anyway, so I'm done. I only like women, I only want to be with women, I've only been with women, the lesbian community isn't about that anymore. I'm done. I tired of hearing about having sex with men or dating men. Lesbian now just means bi or febfem, not for me.

Like I said lesbians can talk about having sex with men all they want now. I'm not going to be apart of the lesbian community anymore. I'm not calling myself a lesbian anymore. I don't consider myself a lesbian anymore. I fully believe there isn't hope for lesbians now.

[–]book_hoarder 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I mean, if you want to redefine yourself just because some women who call themselves lesbians don't feel exactly the same way you do, suit yourself.

I fully believe there isn't hope for lesbians now.

I've been out as a lesbian for the past 17 years, and I promise you, no one has showed up to my house and tried to shove a dick down my throat just because a handful of bisexual women have appropriated the label.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I mean, if you want to redefine yourself just because some women who call themselves lesbians don't feel exactly the same way you do, suit yourself.

Well it's constantly happening every day lesbians saying they have sex with men, even here people are supporting it. So yeah, lesbian means bi now, I'm not bi.

I've been out as a lesbian for the past 17 years, and I promise you, no one has showed up to my house and tried to shove a dick down my throat just because a handful of bisexual women have appropriated the label.

I never said that. Just lesbian has lost it meaning, and it just means bisexual now. I think everyone commenting on this just wants to take me out of context. Also, it's not just a handful of bi women, it's cute you think that tho. I also like that you agree these are bi women, k.

[–]book_hoarder 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There is a difference between a woman who "has sex with men" (present tense) and a woman who "has had sex with men" (past tense). Most people here would agree with you that the former is not a lesbian (in most cases), but the latter potentially is.

I think everyone commenting on this just wants to take me out of context

Or perhaps you aren't stating your grievances very clearly? You posted those two comments in your thread about lesbophobia on Ovarit and I, like everyone else, was left scratching my head over what was so 'phobic about it.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Or perhaps you aren't stating your grievances very clearly? You posted those two comments in your thread about lesbophobia on Ovarit and I, like everyone else, was left scratching my head over what was so 'phobic about it.

It was a screenshot of a Ovarit user saying some lesbians are fine with having sex with men. Wtf. You guys are either so deep in the woke homophobia, or you aren't exclusively same-sex attracted. I guess you just don't like me calling that bs out because you all agree with it.

[–]book_hoarder 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What I read in that screenshot was one woman talking about how some lesbians might be able to tolerate sex with men by dissociating from it (which is actually a common trauma response...), and another woman talking about how she never wanted to have sex with her boyfriend in the past, but didn't think she was a lesbian because she was "able to grin and bear it." None of that sounds like they were "fine with having sex with men." It sounds like they were forcing themselves to have sex they didn't want because they were socially conditioned to believe that they should. Which is heartbreaking.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The first woman was saying there are two types of lesbians, they weren't talking about social conditioning they were stating some lesbians are ok with having sex with men, that what she wrote. If she was talking about what your projecting she wouldve said that, not that there is a "type of lesbian." The other one admitted she was wrong later, just saw that right now, so I'll leave her out.

The first one said there's a distinction and then "lesbians who aren't repulsed by sex with men." You put that in her mouth. Never said anything about pressure or being made to. Just that some lesbians are fine having sex with men. Which to me is lesbophobic, but people here say it's true so

I wonder why everyone commenting about this keeps moving the goal post btw. I've stayed by position but everyone keeps saying I said other things or talking about things that weren't what the post was about. It wasn't

  1. About societal pressure
  2. Experimenting
  3. Liking dick

It was about how there isn't two types of lesbians, that being one that is fine with sleeping with men. You and huffle made it about those things, because idk why insecure about sleeping with men?

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–]lunarstrain 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've never been attracted to men, never had sex with one, and have no intention of trying to. It's interesting to hear of another woman who doesn't like to call herself a lesbian due to how the word has become warped. I usually refer to myself as a homosexual these days, gets the point across better.

I wonder if when they said "ok" with sleeping with men they meant like, "if there were a gun to my head" or "if I had to be a prostitute as to not die in the cold"? I don't think I could stomach it personally but perhaps some women are more able to momentarily put aside their feelings of disgust and discomfort in dire circumstances than I am. I don't think that makes them better than you or I, seems rather pointless in developed countries.

If they meant "ok" as in, "I can sleep with men if there's no women around and I need to get off" then that doesn't sound like a lesbian to me.

Edit: This comment was weird admittedly. It was an attempt to get her to recognize that "ok" doesn't equal "I love sleeping with men!", it was evident that the women referred to by fellow Saidit users weren't doing it for their own pleasure, rather remarking on the fact that they could if they had to and feeling societal pressure. I didn't bother reading the Ovarit thread, so that's why I added in the last part to cover my bases. In the process of trying to tiptoe around her emotions, it came across as rather elitist. My apologies.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've accepted that the "lesbian" community is filled with bisexual women and men now. The word has lost its meaning. I don't think I'll call myself homosexual in casual conversation because its not really used like that where I am, most people, even other gay people would probably give me a weird look. So right now I'll just say gay. Looking back I noticed when I said "I'm gay" men stopped pursuing me fully, so that's a plus. I know "gold star lesbian" is a thing, but my God people hate them, I don't need more of that right now, and I'm just tired with the "lesbian" community currently.

I wonder if when they said "ok" with sleeping with men they meant like, "if there were a gun to my head" or "if I had to be a prostitute as to not die in the cold"? I don't think I could stomach it personally but perhaps some women are more able to momentarily put aside their feelings of disgust and discomfort in dire circumstances than I am. I don't think that makes them better than you or I, seems rather pointless in developed countries.

Are you referring to the Ovarit post or the comments? Or both?

On second thought I'll call myself a gold star here, just to make some people mad lol.