RantRANT: Whycan't we have our own fucking spaces?

submitted by ukrdude10 from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I fully agree that Reddit is biased and has a TRA cock in their mouth, but on every subreddit of ours there are an actual transphobic comments that are upvoted by many. You can't really defend that.

What are you considering actual transphobic comments that get upvoted and why should that mean that no gay subreddit should be allowed to exist considering how trans subreddits are allowed to exist despite brimming with homophobia, misogyny, racism, and rape culture?

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What are you considering actual transphobic comments that get upvoted

"Trans people mutilate their bodies", "trans people are mentally ill", "trans people are disgusting" (mostly including a pic comparing an "ugly" trans person to a gorgeous biological male/female), generalizing trans people as bad and lots, LOTS others, that I can't remember from the top of my head.

In general, our movements have a difficult time with criticizing only the irrational views and toxic rhetoric that TRA's have, without being hateful towards all trans people. Remember that trans people make 0.3% of entire population, they physically couldn't be policing us the way TRA do. TRA =/= trans people. Some trans people can be the crazy activists we're talking about, but not all. Let's not target our potential allies who respect our boundaries just to spite few potential enemies, let's address the silly things that are said about us.

and why should that mean that no gay subreddit should be allowed to exist

In my opinion, that's no reason to shut down a subreddit. I think adults should grow up enough to have a mature discussion and skin thick enough to carry the burden of truth, wherever it lies. But realistically, no serious company will agree to be a platform for a hateful movement. Reddit is clearly leaning to the left, so they will obviously and actively seek for an excuse to ban a controversial community like ours.

I tried defending both of the subreddits I've mentioned after they were banned on Reddit, but AHS clowns had screenshots of actual transphobia with lots of upvotes from other users. Some of the upvotes were obviously coming from the AHS brigade, but the comments were send by actual users, not brigadiers. They were simply dumb enough to post this. And I refuse to go into delusion territory and defend something against the clear evidence.

how trans subreddits are allowed to exist despite brimming with homophobia, misogyny, racism, and rape culture

Just the way r/askgaybros and r/tumblrinaction are able to survive despite occasionally being some of these things. Trans subreddits have the occassional homophobia, misogyny or racism on their subreddits, but it's occassional, vast majority of posts is just... Jesus, I don't know, whatever the fuck they're discussing. Same goes for askgaybros. Trans posts are consitent as of lately, but the vast majority of focus is still "my straight friend crush" and "am I gay if I gave a blowjob?". They obviously hesitate to ban this kind of community, because banning a specific users making these posts is more reasonable than shutting down everything, where majority wasn't against their narrative.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I make distinctions between trans-identifying people and trans activists but I don’t think your examples of transphobia resonate with me. There is a lot of reasonable conversation that can be and must be had about whether gender and sex dysphoria are or should be considered a mental disorder. I think the feelings are real and distressing. I think the preoccupation with social roles and aesthetics is societally driven. But that having a compulsion to surgically alter your healthy functioning body parts and render them non-functioning is extreme and disordered thinking, and can never be considered morally neutral IMO. By that, I mean if a child has two pathways in front of them that could lead to happiness and one of them requires a lifetime of medicalization and surgery and affirming irreality and the other path is acceptance of their healthy body as it is, then there is no way I think those pathways should be considered equally viable. Many trans people are fully able to recognize this too (e.g, Blaire White, Buck Angel, and Scott Newgent), and there is nothing meaningfully transphobic about that or about allowing those conversations or comments. Nor am I going to get worked up about comments about “mutilation” unless there is something else more to it that seeks to insult people’s humanity. For example, I absolutely think the groomers encouraging body dissociation and gleefully encouraging butch lesbians to get double mastectomies as if they’re like hair dye or a fashion choice, are recklessly encouraging body mutilation and surgical self harm. This needs to be called out and I’m not very impressed by those who are more concerned about policing the language used to discuss serious issues than the underlying issues themselves.

Ultimately, I don’t think “trans people” are an identifiable group of people with a set definition. It’s an ideological concept with pretty much all trans-identifying people not even considering several other trans-identifying people truly “trans.” Are they all transphobic too? I do think “transsexual” is a thing but I think transsexual is a state/result of specific actions taken or the process of those actions, independent of ideology about the meaning of those actions or how their actions should be treated under law.

If all of this is considered “transphobia” then I’m not too concerned about warnings of transphobia.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There is a lot of reasonable conversation that can be and must be had about whether gender and sex dysphoria are or should be considered a mental disorder

Certainly. But what I'm referring to was not a reasonable discussion. It was just name calling or memes. Someone saying how TRA's policing people's sexualities is ridiculous and then adding "I'm not going to fuck someone I don't want just because a group of self-mutilation crossdressers expects this".

Or someone saying "Trans issue will solve itself" and then slapping a meme about 40% of trans people committing sucidie.

I think the feelings are real and distressing. I think the preoccupation with social roles and aesthetics is societally driven. But that having a compulsion to surgically alter your healthy functioning body parts and render them non-functioning is extreme and disordered thinking, and can never be considered morally neutral IMO. By that, I mean if a child has two pathways in front of them that could lead to happiness and one of them requires a lifetime of medicalization and surgery and affirming irreality and the other path is acceptance of their healthy body as it is, then there is no way I think those pathways should be considered equally viable. Many trans people are fully able to recognize this too (e.g, Blaire White, Buck Angel, and Scott Newgent), and there is nothing meaningfully transphobic about that or about allowing those conversations or comments. Nor am I going to get worked up about comments about “mutilation” unless there is something else more to it that seeks to insult people’s humanity. For example, I absolutely think the groomers encouraging body dissociation and gleefully encouraging butch lesbians to get double mastectomies as if they’re like hair dye or a fashion choice, are recklessly encouraging body mutilation and surgical self harm. This needs to be called out and I’m not very impressed by those who are more concerned about policing the language used to discuss serious issues than the underlying issues themselves.

Ultimately, I don’t think “trans people” are an identifiable group of people with a set definition. It’s an ideological concept with pretty much all trans-identifying people not even considering several other trans-identifying people truly “trans.” Are they all transphobic too? I do think “transsexual” is a thing but I think transsexual is a state/result of specific actions taken or the process of those actions, independent of ideology about the meaning of those actions or how their actions should be treated under law.

You don't have to preach to me about any of this, as I fully agree. I think what trans people need for their suicide rates to drop, is self-acceptance – so something all of us in LGB community needed to grow emotionally. Instead, they're being spoon-fed with questionable and potentially risky, mostly permanent solutions and the tendency to push this onto youth is scary and cult-like delusional.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Certainly. But what I'm referring to was not a reasonable discussion. It was just name calling or memes. Someone saying how TRA's policing people's sexualities is ridiculous and then adding "I'm not going to fuck someone I don't want just because a group of self-mutilation crossdressers expects this".

I don’t see this as bad or generalizing all trans people. This is calling out the rapey creepy activist wing that is by and large crossdressing people who thoughtlessly encourage surgical self-harm and are preoccupied with eliminating other people’s right to say no.

Making jokes about trans-identifying people killing themselves is abhorrent and inhumane, yes. But I still don’t think transphobia is a meaningful standalone concept especially bc again I don’t think trans is an innate trait. And I absolutely understand being wary around trans people if you don’t know whether or not they’re TRAs, though I feel the same way around my fellow homosexuals. And it sounds like we can both agree that criticism of the veracity of the suicide and violence statistics and the way they are utilized in public discourse is not hateful, but rather necessary.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t see this as bad or generalizing all trans people. This is calling out the rapey creepy activist wing that is by and large crossdressing people who thoughtlessly encourage surgical self-harm and are preoccupied with eliminating other people’s right to say no.

First part was valid and important to state. Calling them "self-mutilating crossdressers" was not necessary.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Whether it’s “necessary” seems to be beside the point. I don’t personally find this to be all that bad or harmful or a hill to die on. This group of people in large part historically identified as cross-dressers. It is often relevant that the people who think that wearing clothes that are culturally typical of the opposite sex (which many gay people have long since been doing without much fanfare or ascribing meaning to it) combined with taking exogenous cross-sex hormones, and consuming plastic surgery should give them any kind of moral high ground or legitimacy in policing the sexual orientation of others.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whether it’s “necessary” seems to be beside the point.

But the entire point of this discussion is "why can't we have our own community?". That's the answer.

What used to be is not true anymore. People who used to identify as that might not be around anymore. It doesn't cost much to show this level of respect and call them "trans" instead of something they consider a slur.