What words/phrases are you sick of hearing, and/or can't take seriously anymore?

submitted by OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" from (self.LGBDropTheT)

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[–][deleted] 37 insightful - 1 fun37 insightful - 0 fun38 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Transphobia. Everything is transphobia now. And pronouns.

[–]mvmlego 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

While I agree that "transphobia" is sickeningly overused, I think this is a problem that the LGB movement largely brought on itself, considering that LGB activists have (and still continue to, in some cases) play pretty fast and loose with the term "homophobia".

As we like to point out to TRAs, the root "sexual" at the end of "homosexual"/"bisexual" means something--specifically, that these are attractions based on sex rather than gender. Unfortunately, LGB activists haven't applied the same degree of precision with the word "homophobia", which--by the same reasoning--should only be used to refer fear of LGB people because of the root "phobia". This leaves the community with little ground to object to the extremely expansive way that TRAs are currently using the word "transphobia".

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

considering that LGB activists have (and still continue to, in some cases) play pretty fast and loose with the term "homophobia".

Curious what examples you are thinking of? I don't have any particular opinion yet one way or the other. I have heard some mixed opinions here about that whole wedding cake case in the U.S.

Unfortunately, LGB activists haven't applied the same degree of precision with the word "homophobia", which--by the same reasoning--should only be used to refer fear of LGB people because of the root "phobia". This leaves the community with little ground to object to the extremely expansive way that TRAs are currently using the word "transphobia".

Agreed. I wish we called it something else, like "sexuality-ism" or something.

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

I have heard some mixed opinions here about that whole wedding cake case in the U.S.

I think this is a pretty good example. Regardless of whether it's morally or legally acceptable to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple on the basis of their sexual orientation, I don't necessarily consider the baker to be homophobic. There are plenty of people who have dispassionate moral objections to homosexuality, such as Ben Shapiro--who, despite being an Orthodox Jew, is friends with Dave Rubin (a married gay man) and has no hesitance about, e.g., sitting next to Rubin or shaking his hand. I don't consider his beliefs homophobic, but I know many that LGB people and their allies would disagree.

On the flip side, a lot of people on this sub are overly lenient about labeling TRAs or their talking points "homophobic". The way they actually seem to be using the term is something much more akin to "harmful to homosexual people" than "afraid of homosexual people". This pops up all the time in threads about transwomen coercing or otherwise manipulating lesbians into have sex with them. Such actions are clearly wrong and harmful to lesbians, but it's equally obvious that the transwomen aren't remotely afraid of lesbians. Nevertheless, many (if not the majority) of this sub's users would label the transwomen in question "homophobic".

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I don't consider his beliefs homophobic, but I know many that LGB people and their allies would disagree.

If his beliefs are anti-homosexuality, then his beliefs are homophobic. That does not necessarily mean that he is a bigot or acts in bigoted ways, I guess. I don't really follow Ben Shapiro so I don't know what the situation is with him.

than "afraid of homosexual people".

This is not what the word homophobic means.

but it's equally obvious that the transwomen aren't remotely afraid of lesbians.

Correct-- because transwomen don't have to be "afraid" of lesbians in order to be "homophobic," the word "homophobic" is a misnomer. It has always meant "bigotry towards X demographic" not fear towards some demographic.

Nevertheless, many (if not the majority) of this sub's users would label the transwomen in question "homophobic".

Yes, and correctly so-- the word is not about fear. I completely agree with you that it would be ideal to have a different, less-misleading term to describe "discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation". What would you propose? Sometimes I think of it as "sexuality-based bigotry" but that's more of a mouthful.

[–]mvmlego 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

transwomen don't have to be "afraid" of lesbians in order to be "homophobic," the word "homophobic" is a misnomer. It has always meant "bigotry towards X demographic" not fear towards some demographic.

If you insist. As I said, though, this opens the door to TRAs claiming that the "sex" in "homosexual" is a misnomer and insisting that non-bigoted gays and lesbians acshually feel attraction based on gender.

What would you propose?

I'm not completely sure, but perhaps "anti-homosexual discrimination"? I that know bisexuals might object to this term out of concern that it promotes bi-erasure, but I don't think it does. A sexual act that occurs between two people of the same sex can reasonably be described as "a homosexual act", even if one of the people involved is bi--and that's the sense in which I'm using the word "homosexual" in "homosexual discrimination".

Another alternative could be "sexuality discrimination", but this one seems extremely vulnerable to horizontal concept creep. In other words, it can be co-opted by various groups such as demisexuals, zoophiles, BDSM enthusiasts, "MAPs", etc. that LGB people don't want to be lumped in with.

[–]AlexisK 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Being homosexual is not a bigotry, calling it bigotry is a bigotry and gaslighting, so it is not opens doors for TRA in any possible way. And saying it is - is gaslighting and homophobic, as it takes idea that homosexuality is "love to masculinity" or "love to femininity" as true.

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

Being homosexual is not a bigotry, ... so it is not opens doors for TRA in any possible way.

On a rhetorical level, it does. I don't believe that any sort of sexual attraction is bigoted (regardless of which groups it excludes), but plenty of people don't see things that way. To those of them who don't understand the trans debate, it sounds worse for a gay man to say "I'm attracted to men, but not transmen" than "I'm homosexual".

For the latter to convey the intended meaning, "homosexual" and "sexual orientation" have to maintain their proper definitions (i.e. that they're about sex, rather than gender). It's very difficult for the LGB community to uphold those definitions while accepting the use of "phobic" in "homophobic" to mean something other than "fear".

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well, "phobic" in science refers not to fear, but to repulsion. A hydrophobic substance repells water, so "phobic" has always had repulsion as an alternate definition

[–]mvmlego 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

A hydrophobic substance repells water, so "phobic" has always had repulsion as an alternate definition

That's a fair point, but it doesn't account for complete breadth of ways that the term is regularly used in the LGB community. Earlier in this thread, I used the example of Ben Shapiro having a non-emotional, moral objection to homosexual activity. I included the details of him not acting squeamish around Dave Rubin specifically to tease out the definition that you're proposing. Nevertheless, u/reluctant_commenter, whom I respect and who hardly strikes me as a radical or an outlier, clarified that she considers him to be homophobic. Consequently, the word is clearly being used to refer to a much broader set of attitudes than fear or repulsion.

Also, including repulsion in the definition of "homophobic" risks implying that that many gays and lesbians are heterophobic for attitudes that aren't actually bad. I don't consider a lesbian who feels repulsed by the notion of interacting with male genitals to be heterophobic (or misandric). By the same principle, I don't consider straight people who feel some repulsion toward various homosexual acts to be homophobic.

That was a level-headed and thoughtful reply, though. I really appreciate it.

[–]hetisachoice 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Tr-nsph-b--" is a misogynistic homophobic buzzword of false equivalence, much like the absurd "h-t-r-ph-b--." They are both forms of het male hate speech against women and gay men.