LesbianWhy the hell do some trans-focused "lesbian" communities talk about being a "top" or "bottom"?

submitted by reluctant_commenter from (self.LGBDropTheT)

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[–]winterwillow 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Been in the community 15 years, never heard any lesbian use it, and hardly any gay men actually, i e never heard any of them go 'I' m such a top' like all the reddit memes. I've always seen it as gay male terms used for compatibility when it comes to sex, not something that's referred to in every day conversations.

Me personally, I see this push to not only use, but 'identify' with these terms as part of trying to create this 'cool girl lesbian'. (have you read the passage from Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn?) Someone who isn't interested in cishetero feminism or icky women's issues like sexual assault, someone who rather adopt gay male culture than cultivate their own, someone who might only sleep with women, but offers up pictures or accounts of how soft and uwu (or dirty and kinky) it is for men to enjoy so they aren't excluded, someone who spends way too much time making sure everyone knows they don't hate men, i e a lesbian that poses no threat, still dependent on male approval.

This of course includes chanting 'transwomen are women', and adopting these gay male terms, as to make sure that lesbian sex is viewed through a heteronormative lens, much like gay sex, where one is giving and the other receiving. Once this is done, it's no longer foremost about being a woman wanting to have sex with another woman, but a 'bottom' wanting to have sex with a 'top'. And how can you as a lesbian 'bottom' refuse to have sex with a lesbian 'top' just because 'she' has an 'organic strap-on'? (Or a gay 'top' refuse to have sex with a 'bottom' with a 'bonus hole' ?) Because remember no feminist analysis of material reality here, only queer theory please. So basically, being such a 'cool girl lesbian' means gaining male approval, but also losing the ability/words to say no to sex with men.

I wrote another comment on a post about AGB that the trans movement seems so eager to want to construct sex as 'a stick goes into a hole' no matter what sticks or holes you have between you, and someone answered that they are eager to do that because that's the only way they have a chance of participating. If sex is a whole body experience, than what do they have to offer?

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

This of course includes chanting 'transwomen are women', and adopting these gay male terms, as to make sure that lesbian sex is viewed through a heteronormative lens, much like gay sex, where one is giving and the other receiving. Once this is done, it's no longer foremost about being a woman wanting to have sex with another woman, but a 'bottom' wanting to have sex with a 'top'. And how can you as a lesbian 'bottom' refuse to have sex with a lesbian 'top' just because 'she' has an 'organic strap-on'? (Or a gay 'top' refuse to have sex with a 'bottom' with a 'bonus hole' ?) Because remember no feminist analysis of material reality here, only queer theory please. So basically, being such a 'cool girl lesbian' means gaining male approval, but also losing the ability/words to say no to sex with men.

Holy crap this is a phenomenal analysis of what's going on. So at its core it's the compartmentalization of the body (and of the mind), on par with postmodernists "deconstructing" biological sex into a Mr. Potato Dick fantasy that they need queer theory to explain? Deconstructing common sense ideas about sex, breaking it all apart, and reconstructing to fit the narrow worldview that is queer theory. Fascinating! But holy shit that is the definition of brainwashing. Breaking down someone's view of reality and forcibly reconstructing it. It's horrible.

[–]winterwillow 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thank you! Re-reading my post, I'd like to emphazise that I didn't mean that one has to be a radical feminist unaffected by society's demands to be a 'good' lesbian. What I meant was that I see a push where especially lesbian but also gay, are more identities and labels, where the accepted way to express you're a lesbian is 'I wear flannel and listen to Girl in Red, I'm such a top', but you're not allowed to talk about what actually makes you lesbian, or the reality of being a homosexual woman, that's dated and uncool and 'terfy'. There's a huge body/mind disconnect going on where your sexuality isn't practice as much as performance in the postmodernist sense, filling the 'queer community' with heterosexual people, and making homosexual people feel like they're not 'gay' enough.

It's very troubling how they've hijacked our community and deconstructed language in order to try and create som queer utopia where sure people 'identify' as having a sexuality, but where biological sex aren't allowed to matter.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This analysis is dead-on and is a more elegant way to frame things I've been trying to communicate IRL with lesbian friends. I've made a lot of headway by pointing out how dystopian it is that we are not allowed to be openly homosexual or talk openly about the things that make us homosexual for fear of backlash from people within the LGBT "community" and ostracization by the organizations who claim to be looking out for us. That we always have to keep the door open and create the impression that we could be open to males. And that dating apps have as a default that we must accept males in our dating pool and how not only disrespectful it is, but how purposeful it is.

And of course without the performance of the forced made-up stereotypes you've mentioned, these gaytrenders have nothing else to base being a lesbian on.

[–]winterwillow 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you! I've been thinking a lot about the trans movement's view on sex and sexuality, hope it can be be useful in your IRL conversations.

That we always have to keep the door open and create the impression that we could be open to males. And that dating apps have as a default that we must accept males in our dating pool and how not only disrespectful it is, but how purposeful it is.

Exactly. This is something I've also thought about, the term 'genital preference', how it makes it sound like a mtf in wanting to date a lesbian stumbles on the last hurdle (sex) that up onto that point (dating, making out etc.) they're still in the running. Because saying you're only attracted to females, not someone's 'female gender identity' aren't allowed.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What I meant was that I see a push where especially lesbian but also gay, are more identities and labels, where the accepted way to express you're a lesbian is 'I wear flannel and listen to Girl in Red, I'm such a top', but you're not allowed to talk about what actually makes you lesbian, or the reality of being a homosexual woman, that's dated and uncool and 'terfy'.

Ugh, thank you. Thank you SO MUCH for putting this into words. This is exactly what my experience has been and it sickens me. If I try to talk about the homophobic remarks I've heard or about having been only attracted to girls and not men, nobody I've met IRL can relate, they just want to talk about stereotypes and "Ohh, does she listen to Girl in Red?! Oh, does she wear flannel?!" Straight people wear flannel all the time... The fetishization of being same-sex-attracted revolts me, and it's all over social media and I hear it in real life from many people I know. I'll just keep staying in my closet, thanks.

edit: a word