Bisexual Or Bust (aka someone who knows words have meanings and that there is a reason for that!)

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[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Can anyone explain the context of who/what Jo Bartosch wrote this piece in response to? Is she reacting to a biphobic actual lesbian or a biphobic and misandristic political lesbian? I generally support and can relate to her words, but context would be helpful for full comprehension and a more thoughtful response.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I would assume that it is more likely that whatever lesbian sparked this is misandristic for them to hate a woman who willingly has sex with men. Whether it is a real or political lesbian, however... a real lesbian may not understand attraction to men, and might be able to see it as disgusting that a woman would 'subject' herself to that. A political lesbian, however, made an active choice and denounced all attraction to men for her beliefs. A political lesbian would be able to relate to male attraction and, having made what they consider to be the right choice, could be disapointed or angry at Jo for not making the same "choice."

Either way, it is awful that lesbians and bisexuals (or potentially bisexuals and bisexuals?) are fighting over real, less deranged men when we all have a common enemy of homophobia. Biphobia within homosexuals may be because of jealousy or resentment for several of the reasons mentioned in the article, like how bisexuals are capable of having fulfilling heteronormative relationships while homosexuals must either remain closeted or reveal themselves to homophobia. This is petty and hypocritical, in my opinion. No one should ever hate someone else because an awful society didn't treat them as poorly or because they were in a better position to hide. The real enemy is the society that led to such a discrepancy to begin with, and those who can hide should be treated as allies and potential spies to infiltrate and dismantle the true enemy.

First we face homophobia (and also biphobia because most homophobes can't tell the difference between LG and B) from outside, and are now subject to internal homophobes from the TQ+, the LG and B need to stay together against all of that. Aaaand then there's the eternal struggle just within the G about mascs vs fems, because we have to be EXTRA petty like that, apparently

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It is hard for me to comment on the specific nature of the biphobia at issue here without knowing whether the momentum is coming from a political lesbian or an actual lesbian because IMO they're coming from different places, even if there is overlap. On the political lesbian side, I think the behavior/attitude is more likely to be motivated by the actions of men and on the actual lesbian side, that's less likely to be the case, and is more likely to be motivated by the actions of bisexual and/or heterosexual women. In both cases, there's an over-correction. Bad behavior by bad actors may be accurately identified, but it's getting projected on innocent actors. Assigning moral value to any sexual orientation is bad IMO. That being said, taking over-corrective preventative measures when it comes to one's own life in terms of who to date or want to be friends with can be extreme and unpleasant to behold, but doesn't quite merit the same moral opprobrium. I feel like I'm always playing a balancing act of getting both annoyed with and sympathizing with both sides. I just wish everyone could be open and honest and own up to their shit and to the behavior of the bad actors on their side. But in what area of life would this not be a good solution?

[–]LesbianInExile[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I try to take people as I find them rather than judging them on their sexuality but lesbian feminism (which is full of bi women) has unfortunately made me doubt how much trust and respect there can be between lesbians and bi women. Of all the bisexual women in radical feminism who have started dating women, Jo Bartosch is the only one who I have ever come across who has taken this stand. They are all so well versed and passionate about why it is wrong from a man to identify as a woman but refuse to apply this to the word lesbian - and they respond to any attempts to discuss the issues with bad faith straw man arguments about "gold stars", trying to twist it to say it is about having had sex with a man rather than being attracted to men.

I know other bisexual radfems who identify as bisexual but only because they are in relationships with men and bi radfem friends who myself and other lesbians have spoken to about how problematic this is, still say that if they split up with their boyfriend they are going to "become a lesbian" so it really makes me doubt how much I can trust them and how little they really care about lesbians.

Tbh, from wide eyed enthusiasm for feminism and women when I got involved in gender critical feminism, radical feminism and, in particular, lesbian feminism has really made me doubt the decency and trust between lesbians and other women. I hope that lesbian feminism isn't representative of humanity or womanhood and that it's just that decent bisexuals give it a wide berth.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The other thing is this preoccupation with the concept of being a “gold star lesbian.” It has always felt like such a non-issue that is mainly used to demonize lesbians when I really don’t think most lesbians care. But people online (and only online from what I can tell) get so hot and upset about it and act like it’s shaming non-gold stars or is inherently a statement about other lesbians. I’m not a gold star and it’s never occurred to me that another lesbian referring to herself as such should somehow be offensive to me. It does sound like such a disingenuous concern to me.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

(Warning, this might be a bit tangential, but the article resonated.) I read all of this and wonder when everyone will finally graduate from junior high. I mean, WTF; this is why I avoid these crowds. :-) Simple formula: Use the accurate words, stop fussing so much about who anybody else is sleeping with, and have more fun in life. Sheesh. All of this jockeying for position is entirely too concerned with the wrong types of positions.

To be more crass and more blunt, there is so damned much uptight-ness going on in these scenarios—which is the reason I keep avoiding my local LGBT community—that I wonder when the last time was that any of these people took a brisk walk or jerked off. I mean really. Lighten up. There is enough to worry about in this world, without everyone stuffing themselves into the ladies room and fighting over a place at the mirror. (Something I'm guessing fewer L/B women have done than straight women, but this sure looks the same.)

I agree with the author of the linked post. As long as I might become exasperated with yet another immature woman and toss a man into my bed (easier to find the good ones when you don't GAF what they think in the first place; they can't yank your emotional chain) to reduce my exasperation, then I have to use the word bisexual. But my preference is strongly for women. I am just glad I can have fun when there are none around I would want to deal with. :-) Which is the vast majority of the time. Yes, that sucks as much as it sounds like it does.

There are so many immature L / B women (though, I have to say, I have known many more relaxed, sane Bs, but we all inhabit a very open and accepting subculture) that I kind of don't even know what to say, except that there are just as many immature straight ones. And sometimes the latter hit on me. Which is usually very annoying. There is no mystery about why I end up with men in my bed now and then: A dearth of quality women. The women who want me are usually looking for someone to top them in everyday life, which is super annoying, and they usually aren't the ones I am physically attracted to, either. So it's kind of just a cosmic joke. "You wanted a woman? Here, a totally unsuitable one wants you." Cool.

Did I go off on a tangent, there? :-) I just got hit on by another confused straight woman the other day (I do not think she is straight, given what she said to me, but who knows when she'll get that memo). Whom I adore as a friend and also think is pretty cute. So I'm [very] annoyed right now. :-) I would love it if someone I was attracted to and could enjoy being around and didn't have to manage or help figure themselves out hit on me. Put it this way, I prefer women—and I have had some great men in my life. Because I did not care, was not looking for them, and became friends with them before anything else happened.

The best of them were bisexual themselves. More fun in bed, kinder, more open-minded, much less stuck in gender-role stereotypes, and all of them were attracted to strong women. Pity I am not more attracted to them in their absence or I might develop a predilection. But when no one is around, it isn't men I am thinking about.

But bisexual is still the accurate word. My body has other thoughts about this, which is to say men don't elicit the arousal responses in me that women do. I wish it were otherwise, because I'd like to be able to engage with them as fully as I can with a woman. I feel like they're getting cheated a little bit, though they never seem to feel this way. I know better.

So being bisexual isn't endless party time, not for me. It's an endless cycle between wanting what I can't find, and making the best of what I can find. I just don't have a built-in limit on that which disqualifies half the human race, and frankly, I'm grateful. Because the women I am attracted to are almost never available.

However, that's just me. Other women have different experiences of attraction. I am just not far enough along the spectrum toward lesbian that I would use the word. And even when I thought I was, I ran away from the local LGB(T) community because the immaturity and popularity-contesting was so rampant I couldn't take it. I found it baffling and incredibly unattractive.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, that's the unfortunate part. It is absolutely terrible to assign moral value to any sexuality, but if we were good enough at being civil to do that, we'd need to be better than humanity has proven itself to be over several millennia. Humans are awful, and it's unfortunate that we can't expect better from ourselves, but it makes sense considering the nature of homosexual attraction and how it doesn't influence as much as people give it credit for.

And I, unforturnately, on a whole species standpoint, don't see any way to try and fix humanity without potentially billions of people dying. Generational change? Billions of innocent lives lost along the way. Extinction event that helps us get our shit together? In the name, extinction, a lot of innocent people die. Unspeakable war crimes? Not an option! There is no way to fix humanity without not just a ton of work, but a ton of wasted lives.

My hope is that Mars will be selective on who is allowed to colonize the planet so we can have at least one pocket of civilization that doesn't suffer from hatred and stupidity. And it might be able to lead Earth by example and accelerate a generational change

[–]just_lesbian_things 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

it is awful that lesbians and bisexuals (or potentially bisexuals and bisexuals?) are fighting over real, less deranged men when we all have a common enemy of homophobia

Why is it awful? We fight for what is important to us. Also, we're not fighting over men, but if we were, I wouldn't count on your judgment as to which men are more or less deranged.

Biphobia within homosexuals may be because of jealousy or resentment for several of the reasons mentioned in the article, like how bisexuals are capable of having fulfilling heteronormative relationships while homosexuals must either remain closeted or reveal themselves to homophobia. This is petty and hypocritical, in my opinion.

I think the bigger problem is the fact that bisexual women can not or will not understand why they are "disliked" by lesbians. I wouldn't say any of the reasons the article stated or the reasons you stated are the main reasons why bisexuals are sometimes not liked by lesbians. I also disagree with the theory that it's "a few bad actors". I do lurk bisexual communities from time to time and while it's obviously not every single individual, I think the things that are commonly "disliked" by lesbians is generally present in the bisexual community.

Lesbian public relations is a constant stream of laughably bad interpretation by non-lesbians about our "behavior", followed by the same non-lesbian party haughtily trying to tell us the "correct" path- who we should consider our allies, who we should consider our enemies, how we should act. Trans people do it, bisexual people do it, you did it just now. In summary, it's annoying as fuck.

You say you don't know how to fix this situation. I think maybe actually understanding the situation is a good first step.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Either way, it is awful that lesbians and bisexuals (or potentially bisexuals and bisexuals?)

Or straight women and bisexuals. Based on the extra context OP provided, it looks like "political lesbians" is the answer.

Biphobia within homosexuals may be because of jealousy or resentment for several of the reasons mentioned in the article, like how bisexuals are capable of having fulfilling heteronormative relationships while homosexuals must either remain closeted or reveal themselves to homophobia. This is petty and hypocritical, in my opinion. No one should ever hate someone else because an awful society didn't treat them as poorly or because they were in a better position to hide. The real enemy is the society that led to such a discrepancy to begin with, and those who can hide should be treated as allies and potential spies to infiltrate and dismantle the true enemy.

I agree, but that's not what this is, so let's not bash lesbians as a result of the actions of so-called "political lesbians".

[–]LesbianInExile[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

She's involved in radical feminism so it'll be "lesbian feminists" which includes a few actual lesbians and a lot of bisexual political lesbians. From my experience, it is the political lesbians who are always trying to recruit and persuade bi women to identify as lesbians - if they've split up with their boyfriend or have started seeing a woman, they swarm round asking when they are going to "become a lesbian". She's the only bisexual radfem dating a woman that I've come across who hasn't either enthusiastically embraced "being a lesbian" (cutting her hair short, festooning herself with t-shirts and badges describing herself as a dyke and going on about how much she hates men) or at least been bullied into it. She has described elsewhere the abuse she's received for not capitulating. As she writes in the article about the importance of using the right word to describe bi women, it would helpful if she acknowledged that the abusive "lesbians" she is talking about are bi women - or at the very least include some bi women.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are these “bi women” exerting all the pressure really even bisexual or is it just that they’re definitely not lesbian? I’m trying to understand here whether there is really any basis to believe they’re even more than straight. I’m missing a lot of backstory and this is giving me a headache, but you are helping me realize a lot of things, and I thank you for that.

Initially when I found gender critical feminism and radfemmery — though I merely consider myself GC aligned/leaning and not a radfem — it was through witnessing the Cotton Ceiling rhetoric and other constant and flagrant disrespect for lesbians within the LGBT “community.” So I initially became immersed in the lesbian issues related to the gender movement and approached being GC aligned from a lesbian perspective. I think lesbian issues have always been my cornerstone since I’ve been involved. This is why I prefer to hang out in s/LGBDroptheT relative to other spaces where gender issues come up and I can’t personally get into Ovarit. I need more balance and thought diversity around me more than I need an echo chamber.

So anyway, I heard that a lot of radfems were lesbians and it made sense to me because I thought “who else would care so much about and have such a perfect vantage point to identify women’s issues than lesbians?” I later learned about the concept of “political lesbians,” but I think I’m only now starting to understand the full extent of it. It’s its own kind of peaking. And if it’s as widespread as it seems and there is a desire by political lesbians to convert more political lesbians, then radfems/GC voices are never going to call out this misappropriation. They have every incentive not to. So you’re right, when they talk about “lesbians,“ they blatantly don’t mean actual lesbians, including likely Jo here.

The biggest hint these radfems are political, not actual lesbians — and I will have to do more research on which ones claim to be lesbian at all — but they almost never talk about trans/gender issues from the lesbian perspective, even when they mention lesbians. They never discuss the realities and nuances of female homosexuality, homosexuality in general, or bisexuality. They are speaking from a more general woman perspective at more general women’s issues. And they certainly don’t speak as if they have ever been part of the LGBT “community” and know the nuances of that. This is all very interesting and does go hand and hand with some of my other recent realizations. Just like the gender cult helped me realize that a lot of people supported gay rights for reasons other than respect for homosexuality and bisexuality and lesbigay people as human beings worthy of dignity and respect, I realized that certain radfem political lesbian types seem to support gay rights issues as a way to weaken the patriarchy by raising up gay men, which sounds ironic, but I do get the impression that a lot of them don’t think of gay men as “real men,” especially effeminate ones, except when they’re accusing them of misogyny for things including drag. But of course effeminate gay men do become an existential threat when they seek to transition.

Additionally many gender-related radfem talking points do not resonate with me. First of all, I am pretty gender-conforming appearance-wise a lot of the time. I don’t care to ascribe misogyny to objects and symbols, but to behaviors, attitudes, and beliefs. I’m not going to chop off my hair and never wear dresses or makeup or whatever because that would be a “performance” for me more than how I am now. I also barf at the phrase “performing femininity.” Like obviously I’m not “performing femininity for men,” doofuses. But nor am I “performing” any thing for women either. It is possible to like a feel comfortable a certain way even though you didn’t come out of the womb like that, without it having to mean anything.

I have a lot to think about, but this has been helpful. Thank you.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Omg, this would be a bisexual woman I would totally date 👆 THIS is the prime example of bisexual people I absolutely adore and wish I could meet ❤️ a bi and proud strong person