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[–]Lapis_Lazuli 25 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

Yeah, sure. You're obviously extremely familiar with feminism, which is why you think Judith Butler is a radical feminist.

Let's start with four claims. Which of the following do you doubt? On what grounds do you reject the evidence linked?

  • Systemic bias against female job candidates pervades many fields. Reams of studies have shown that employers tend to rate fictional female candidates as less hireable and less competent than equally-qualified male candidates.

http://faculty.fiu.edu/~aeaton/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Eaton-Saunders-Jacobson-West-2019.pdf

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/09/21/study-offers-new-evidence-scientists-are-biased-against-women

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/why-employers-favor-men

  • Women in heterosexual relationships perform the lion's share of childcare, often driving them onto the "mommy track" or out of the workforce altogether while their husbands' careers continue uninterrupted by fatherhood. Men can have their cake and eat it too; becoming a parent entails much greater sacrifice for women.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2018/05/18/450972/unequal-division-labor/

https://www.nber.org/papers/w16582

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0190657

  • In many parts of the United States, women who wish to terminate an unwanted pregnancy will find it difficult to do so, thanks to concerted legislative efforts to restrict women's access to abortion

https://www.guttmacher.org/united-states/abortion

  • Girls are taught that their looks are integral to their worth in a way that boys are not. Women are encouraged to pursue often unattainable beauty ideals and viewed as lesser when they fail to live up to those ideals in a way that men are not.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227762679_Body_Image_and_Self-Esteem_Among_Adolescent_Girls_Testing_the_Influence_of_Sociocultural_Factors

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/12/05/americans-see-different-expectations-for-men-and-women/

Now, maybe you think that women are on average less competent than men and employers reluctant to seriously consider female candidates are just exercising common sense. Maybe you think that evolution has fashioned women to be caretakers and homemakers and it is best for all concerned if they are herded into these roles. Maybe you think that women who are pregnant should carry the pregnancy to term whether they want to or not (the selfish little sluts). Maybe you think that women should be invisible if they're not ornamental because, really, what else are women good for? I suspect that these statements do describe your beliefs to some extent, because the people who deny that sex-based oppression exists will usually, if pushed, admit that what they really mean is that sex-based oppression is good and and right and natural and therefore not truly oppression at all.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I actually read these, so prepare for some lengthy criticism of why I do not accept your interpretations.

Eaton & Saunders et al deliberately sent weak CVs with ambiguous "obvious drawbacks" (as stated in the paper), with a low sample size. Additionally, several other studies noted in the very same paper under "limitations" (Ceci & Williams 2015, NRC 2009), all found high preference for women in the departments studied. The difference being these other studies sent normal or promising CV's, whereas the study you linked sent deliberately sabotaged CV's. Indicating that, when women have normal credentials, they are HEAVILY preferred over men. When men and women have bad credentials, men are slightly preferred. The preference for women is far greater than the preference for male candidates comparing the two. This study does not demonstrate "pervasive sexism preferences" in hiring, it demonstrates a slight male preference on the basis of names (a dubious instrumentation as it is) if and only if the CV's are bad.

Moss-Racusin & Dovidio et al is an even funnier case, being also an extremely tiny sample (n = 127) while also finding both men and women in the test case ranked women as less desirable hires. Also, again, much larger studies of normal randomized CV's as previously mentioned have found no effect. To contradict this further, here's a literature overview: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/rabble-rouser/201906/are-scientists-biased-against-women-scientists-part-ii - The majority of studies find either no bias, or bias favoring women.

As an important break here, sample size, randomization, and other statistical considerations, are very important. Without doing it properly, you can effectively get whatever result you want. Compare with what was found in STEM tenure track, revealing a 2:1 preference: https://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360

Concerning article 3, I will simply re-emphasize this retort: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/rabble-rouser/201906/are-scientists-biased-against-women-scientists-part-ii - Most studies, with larger samples than any you cited, find no bias, or a bias favoring women.

Regarding "American Progress", women also prefer and more voluntarily take up that lion's share of care. As they do in almost every other species. I fail to see, and your link spamming does not, indicate why this is an issue, when women choose voluntarily to do so. Decisions have costs, and people weigh those costs to get what they want. You cannot, as it were, "have your cake and eat it too". Frankly this dismisses the rest of the articles on that same point, sofar as I could find. If you consider "sexism" as "Not being able to do everything all at once with no tradeoffs", we have bigger issues. Your point 2 is just... I don't even know.

Abortion issues are ethical ones that women vote differently on, as do men. Calling differences of opinion "misogyny" because it doesn't go your way is just a slur, and not in support anything related to feminism. Your point 3 is kind of irrelevant.

Pertaining to self image and relative attractiveness, everybody gauges their own attractiveness relative to those around them. The conclusions you draw from that single tiny sample study on teenage girls is, frankly, ridiculous. Teenagers in particular are most vulnerable to this due to heightened degrees of narcissism, and this declines into adulthood. Should we throw acid at all the pretty people so nobody feels bad? This does not support point 4

Regarding the Pew poll, soooo what? Men and women are not interchangeable and are different. What people would want out of men or women is obviously also going to be different. I don't get what you think this proves.

In summary - I do not think any of your points are supported reliably by evidence, nor do I think they exclusively pertain to women or in any way reinforce some central point of "feminism".

[–]Lapis_Lazuli 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I don't believe you read any of the linked sources; I believe you skimmed until you found the first thing you could attack.

I need to walk the dog, but let me very quickly respond to this in particular:

Regarding the Pew poll, soooo what? Men and women are not interchangeable and are different. What people would want out of men or women is obviously also going to be different. I don't get what you think this proves.

You really think that it is not indicative of misogyny that the trait most highly valued in women is attractiveness? Really?

Just to confirm—apparently you also believe that compelling women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term has nothing to do with systemic sexism? You don't see at all see how restricting abortion access has anything to do with restricting women's rights?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't believe you read any of the linked sources; I believe you skimmed until you found the first thing you could attack.

Then explain why I referenced multiple things from your own articles found at the middle and ends of them? Also, I am already familiar with many of these kinds of papers being proffered by people on your side claiming them as gospel. But that's a neat trick to avoid actually responding to criticism.

You really think that it is not indicative of misogyny that the trait most highly valued in women is attractiveness? Really?

Actually, it's the trait most valued in men and women. Women just tend to think they value other things more. Look up research on this relating to the "tyranny of attractiveness", and research by Elaine Hatfield. In actual dating simulations and interactions, the stated preferences of men and women regarding personality, wealth, etc, were entirely irrelevant. The single sole factor that best predicted how anyone was treated was their physical attractiveness. Other research in that same arena shows your own skill doesn't matter either, in terms of income in a field, but how attractive others rate you (both men and women). I can send you a whole library of papers on these kinds of topics if you are genuinely interested. Sadly, given your dismissal of my criticism, I doubt you are.

But no, I don't think valuing people for different things is sexist. Women are near equally valued for their empathy and kindness, and you focus on the thing you apparently hate most. Geeze, you really hate people finding other people attractive. Apparently.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey you two ... this would be a way better discussion to have in a GenderCritical and/or debate sub, or taking to PMs.

You both are getting into stuff that's veering way off-topic from LGB and dropping the T.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's fair. Just kind of developed that way. Sorry. I'll try better to avoid in future.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey you two ... this would be a way better discussion to have in a GenderCritical and/or debate sub, or taking to PMs.

You both are getting into stuff that's veering way off-topic from LGB and dropping the T.