BisexualRobust evidence for bisexual orientation among men

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[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

But they're still bisexual. A man who is surgically altered is still a man. There's no such thing as "proper" or "true" bisexual. If you'd fuck both sexes, regardless of how they look, you're bisexual.

It is the same, and it's no worse than saying I'm gay despite me not loving men and not wanting to be with them. Sexuality isn't about love, it's about sexual attraction. It's not always clean and PG-13 and about romance.

Saying that trans women are "something other than men" is 1. Buying into their horseshit ideology and 2. Pretty fucking disrespectful to those of us who are guys who look female, as it's heavily implied we're not male and thus it "doesn't count as bisexual" for a guy to be into us.

You wouldn't argue that a woman interested in trans men was "psuedobisexual" and not really interested in women because trans men look masculine. As always, this stuff literally only applies to MTFs for unknown reasons.

[–]SeasideLimbs 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Sexuality isn't about love, it's about sexual attraction.

Exactly. It's about sexual attraction. A man who wants to have sex with another man because of some fetish he has is not the same thing as being sexually attracted to men. I don't know how much clearer I can make this to you, so I'm not going to try. Pseudobisexuality is not bisexuality and to say that it is, is to make light of bisexual people's sexual orientation because you're equating them to fetishists.

Edit: I'm gonna assume you're arguing in good faith and that understanding the idea is simply giving you a little trouble. Here's an example that should be easy to understand: Imagine a straight man who has a pronounced humiliation fetish. Being humiliated or emasculated arouses him. Wishing to engage in that fetish, he seeks out a man and asks to have anal sex with him, with him as the bottom and the man he's asking being the top. He wishes for this because, as a straight man who has never engaged in anal sex and has a relatively typical heterosexual male perspective on it, the idea of being anally penetrated feels degrading to him, and therefore arousing. This man is not bisexual. He has no interest in the other man. To him, the other man is merely a means to an end for his fetishistic fantasy. Calling him bisexual means equating bisexual people to fetishists like this man.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People with a fetish are attracted to an idea more than actual bodies, the bodies are only parts of the set that they use to recreate their fetish, is what you mean, right?

[–]SeasideLimbs 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's exactly what I mean. :) It's about whether you are attracted to the person, or to something else (clothing, activities, pain, humiliation, taboo, etc.)

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unfortunately, there are many people out there whose attractions completely centre themselves and everyone else is a means to an end that they project all over. I’ve been with someone who was basically using people like that. Not trans. But eventually you realise you are interchangeable with almost anyone else. Gross.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Lol, how is "wanting to have sex with a man because he has a fetish" different from sexual attraction?

I've never found a real guy hot. Never. Am I a "psuedohomosexual?" Does this make me not really gay because I've never been attracted to the body of a real male, and definitely don't want to have a romantic relationship with one? Or, once again, does this somehow only apply to bi people?

Psuedobisexuality isn't real, and it's offensive to bisexuals to say there's such thing as "Not being bisexual enough." And, once again,

To answer your example... that literally does not happen. Do you know what straight men with an anal humiliation fetish do? They get into "femdom", and seek out WOMEN to anally penetrate them with a strapon. These women do exist, so they have no reason to go for men. Those who seek out men do so because they ARE attracted to men, or else, they wouldn't do it.

And speaking from experience, having sex with someone you're NOT sexually attracted to is very psychologically damaging. Even the most perverted of male, I think, would become very uncomfortable and would not be able to keep doing it.

So no, they ARE bisexual, since they express a desire with sex with men. They must be attracted to men, or else they'd quickly become damaged from the sex and stop doing it. This is why there are so many "trans lesbians" who want a "mommy dom." If humiliation and feminization fetishes made men go for men, they wouldn't be harassing women.

[–]SeasideLimbs 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lol, how is "wanting to have sex with a man because he has a fetish" different from sexual attraction?

It's different because the man in my example wants to have sex because he's aroused by humiliation, whereas a bisexual man can have sex with a man because he thinks "this man is hot."

I've never found a real guy hot. Never. Am I a "psuedohomosexual?"

If you've never found a real guy hot, yeah, that means you're not attracted to men.

Does this make me not really gay because I've never been attracted to the body of a real male, and definitely don't want to have a romantic relationship with one?

Yeah, honestly that in no way sounds like a gay man to me. If you're neither attracted to men nor want a romantic relationship with one, that's pretty much the textbook definition of someone who is not a gay man.

Psuedobisexuality isn't real, and it's offensive to bisexuals to say there's such thing as "Not being bisexual enough." And, once again,

You're still strawmanning what I'm actually saying, even after I explained to you in detail how pseudobisexuality is about the difference between fetishism and attraction rather than "not being bisexual enough."

To answer your example... that literally does not happen. Do you know what straight men with an anal humiliation fetish do? They get into "femdom", and seek out WOMEN to anally penetrate them with a strapon. These women do exist, so they have no reason to go for men. Those who seek out men do so because they ARE attracted to men, or else, they wouldn't do it. And speaking from experience, having sex with someone you're NOT sexually attracted to is very psychologically damaging. Even the most perverted of male, I think, would become very uncomfortable and would not be able to keep doing it.

That's provably false. Sissification communities, cuckold communities and other humiliation-based fetish communities are full of men who engage in and express interest in such activities. They have terms for it liked "forced bi" and they never show interest in men, only in somehow being degraded by men. Many cuckolding fetishists for example enjoy cleaning a man's penis after he had sex with their wives and being penetrated by him in front of their wives, but show no romantic attraction in men and no interest in having sexual interactions with them that aren't focused on humiliation.

So no, they ARE bisexual, since they express a desire with sex with men.

That's ridiculous and really homophobic. You are equating an interest in fetishistic acts with an attraction toward men.

This is why there are so many "trans lesbians" who want a "mommy dom."

How do you explain the large percentage of "trans women" who have been documented talking endlessly about how they want to "have their throats fucked hard" and "be treated like a worthless cumslut" and never show any interest in the man himself (neither sexual nor romantic) or any interest in a relationship with a man?

If humiliation and feminization fetishes made men go for men, they wouldn't be harassing women.

Of course they would. AGPs have proven time and time again that they are narcissistic and will demand anything they want from people with no shame and will declare people transphobic when they don't get it.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's different because the man in my example wants to have sex because he's aroused by humiliation, whereas a bisexual man can have sex with a man because he thinks "this man is hot."

But as I said, that doesn't actually happen. Straight guys with a humiliation fetish enjoy being anally penetrated by women... bisexual males will go for men. It's that simple.

If you've never found a real guy hot, yeah, that means you're not attracted to men.

And if I'm exclusively attracted to penises? Isn't that same sex attraction, even on a very basic form? Sexuality labels are approximations, people experience this stuff differently.

Yeah, honestly that in no way sounds like a gay man to me. If you're neither attracted to men nor want a romantic relationship with one, that's pretty much the textbook definition of someone who is not a gay man.

Orientation is about sexual attraction. Not about "love."

You're still strawmanning what I'm actually saying, even after I explained to you in detail how pseudobisexuality is about the difference between fetishism and attraction rather than "not being bisexual enough."

Wanting to have sex with men is not fetishism. Fetishism is sexual responses to something that is not a person.

That's provably false. Sissification communities, cuckold communities and other humiliation-based fetish communities are full of men who engage in and express interest in such activities. They have terms for it liked "forced bi" and they never show interest in men, only in somehow being degraded by men. Many cuckolding fetishists for example enjoy cleaning a man's penis after he had sex with their wives and being penetrated by him in front of their wives, but show no romantic attraction in men and no interest in having sexual interactions with them that aren't focused on humiliation.

Most men into sissification are in fact gay or bisexual. Occassionally, yes, you will find straight ones, but once again those males will go for female "dominants" to humiliate or feminize them, not men. Just because some CLAIM to be straight, yet get off from gay sex, does not mean they are actually straight. You are literally trying to justify the "no homo" excuse here, lmfao.

Gay/bi males can be in denial, and men who are into "sissification" are so many levels of fucked up its not surprising they'd deny being gay or bisexual.

That's ridiculous and really homophobic. You are equating an interest in fetishistic acts with an attraction toward men.

Actually, you're pretty homophobic and disrespectful for insisting that homosexuality is this PG-13, squeaky clean idea of fairytale "love." Sometimes it is about sex. By insisting it's about "love" you're actually excluding a lot of people. I have had a lot of guys interested in me and not one of them has ever expressed love or affection. It can actually be rather rare.

How do you explain the large percentage of "trans women" who have been documented talking endlessly about how they want to "have their throats fucked hard" and "be treated like a worthless cumslut" and never show any interest in the man himself (neither sexual nor romantic) or any interest in a relationship with a man?

Easy. They are gay in denial. They ARE attracted to men sexually but they believe it's shameful for them to do so, and don't pursue relationships because they are too embarassed, or even that they think of themselves in such a low way (re: wanting to be sexually abused) that they think they don't deserve relationships.

Or, they might be like me and just may not like males romantically.

There are also some cases of MTFs who like "girl dick" or other trans, but show no interest in regular males. This is not "psuedobisexuality", this is still bisexuality or homosexuality, just with a focus on mixed sex traits. This isn't actually THAT rare, and I have actually met many non-trans people who happen to only be interested in feminine males, androgynous people, or masculine women.

Of course they would. AGPs have proven time and time again that they are narcissistic and will demand anything they want from people with no shame and will declare people transphobic when they don't get it.

Well, they'd harass them in other ways, yes, but I specifically meant sexual harassment. If fetishistic straight MTFs always had to have sex with men for their humilation fetish, they wouldnt whine about women not fucking them and specifically show sexual interest in women. But a lot of them show interest in ONLY women, and some show interest in both sexes. Some are entirely gay. They are males. Them being trans, that is, being part of a dangerous ideology and fetish, does not make them aliens. They are as capable of being any sexuality as anyone else.

[–]SeasideLimbs 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But as I said, that doesn't actually happen. Straight guys with a humiliation fetish enjoy being anally penetrated by women... bisexual males will go for men. It's that simple.

Except they don't. Humiliation fetishists are driven by a desire for humiliation. Being humiliated by men is oftentimes more arousing to them because it's a man "proving his superiority" over them. Hence why cuckolding fetishes are so common among them. I honestly have no idea where you are taking the idea from. Have you ever talked to them? Have you ever spent time in their communities? Cause I have and many of them admit freely that they are only attracted to women but are aroused by having a man humiliate them.

And if I'm exclusively attracted to penises?

I don't know, that's not enough to go off of. But if you have no sexual or romantic interest in men otherwise like you said, chances are it's something other than a sexual orientation.

Sexuality labels are approximations, people experience this stuff differently.

That sounds a lot like the "it's just a preference" rhetoric that TRAs like to use. For homosexual people it's generally pretty simple. They are romantically and sexually attracted to people of the same sex.

Orientation is about sexual attraction. Not about "love."

Neither of which you have. Quote: "Does this make me not really gay because I've never been attracted to the body of a real male" and "I've never found a real guy hot. Never."

Wanting to have sex with men is not fetishism. Fetishism is sexual responses to something that is not a person.

I'm not gonna explain this to you again. The guy in my example had sex with a man for a reason that was not a person: humiliation. Men like these exist and you pulling stuff out of your behind about them supposedly "becoming traumatized from it" and then continuing to contradict yourself by saying "they wouldn't do it anyways because they only want to be humiliated by women" isn't going to change that. A simple look at their communities proves this.

Most men into sissification are in fact gay or bisexual.

Literally provably false:

Transvestism: A Survey of 1032 Cross-Dressers

"One thousand and thirty-two male periodic cross-dressers (transvestites) responded to an anonymous survey patterned after Prince and Bentler's (1972) report. With few exceptions, the findings are closely related to the 1972 survey results. Eighty-seven percent described themselves as heterosexual."

Body, gender, sexuality and subjectivity among men who practice cross-dressing

"Although some crossdressers do have same sex relationships, preferentially or exclusively, most people I have met in the field identify as heterosexual."

I don't have an issue with engaging with people for a long time if their intentions are good. The fact that you are blatantly lying now and continuing to misrepresent what I and others have been saying makes me think this might not be the case here. I think I've made my points clearly enough and don't want to spend more time on this issue than is necessary, especially not when it's about someone who is explicitly not homosexual himself trying to equate fetishism with sexual orientations. I've had enough homophobia from TRAs. I don't need any more of it here.

[–]a_blue_bird 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You seem to think that pseudobisexuals are called that because of transition. They aren't, and this term is also applied to people who haven't transitioned. As the other user already wrote, the reason why they are not considered bisexual is that they do not normally have any interest in the same sex - sexual or romantic - but it appears when they begin ''presenting''. E.g., when a cross-dresser dresses up as a woman, he might begin seeking relations with men in order to live out the fantasy of ''being a woman''. Not because he experiences genuine sexual attraction to the particular man X or Y, but because the fantasy of being a woman turns him on, and he needs literally any guy to fuck him to make him feel even more ''womanly''. The crosdresser's (or transsexual pseudobisexual's) focus is always on himself, the arousal comes from himself, imagining himself as a woman, engaging in stereotypical female behaviours etc. That is one of several reasons why MTFs argue that ''but women are also turned on by themselves, it's not just us!!!''

As always, this stuff literally only applies to MTFs for unknown reasons.

Well, paraphilias are much more common in men than in women. Plus, up until recently MTFs were the overwhelming majority of transsexuals. Take both of these things into account and you might understand why paraphilic behaviors in FTMs haven't been studied very much.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The attraction to males or females for these people requires a fetish narrative to sustain itself, and the narrative revolves around the person with the fetish. It’s less about the other than the self. That’s how I read it. The “behaviour” is bisexual if the person sleeps with both sexes, but the attraction is fetish based and revolving around the person with the fetish.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I didn't say that it was. I'm just pointing out that, 99% of the time, the term ONLY seems to be used when discussing trans people.

No, they don't. I've literally never seen this happen. STRAIGHT men with humiliation fetishes go for "femdoms"/women who will peg them with a strapon. These women do exist, so men have no reason to seek out men. Plus, speaking from very real personal experience, having sex with someone you're not genuinely attracted to is AWFUL. It's super psychologically damaging and not something I would wish even on pervert males. I think even they would quickly be damaged by it, and would no longer seek out men for sex.

The males that specifically go for males are bi/gay. It doesn't matter if they're not the kind of bi/gay that YOU want them to be, or the kind that fits the "Love is love, sweet precious MLM!" innocent narrative. Plenty of bi/gay people DON'T fit that narrative, and I am one of them. My sexuality isn't about "Love", and it's entirely a negative experience. Sure, sure, we may not be the MAJORITY, but we do in fact exist and we're not some kind of "psuedosexuality." You could argue that people like me have sexual disorders, perhaps, or that our sexualities aren't 100% developed properly, but to say that we're actually "straight with a fetish" is hilariously dumb and is on the same level of "Well it's not gay if you don't take it up the ass."

And I will ask you again. I have never been physically attracted to the body of a real life man. I don't like men. I have no emotional connection to men, the idea of being with a man in a romantic relationship is sickening. So tell me, am I a "psuedohomosexual?" Is my sexuality caused bya "humilation fetish" despite me being emotionally unable to cope with being seen as inferior? Or does this magically only apply to bi people because blah blah they're deviants who oppress the L/G or some horseshit along those lines?

What I HAVE seen however is very obviously bi males come up with "no homo" excuses and try to CLAIM that they're not bi. For example a MTF who considers himself "straight", or, like I said, guys who are into feminine males who claim that doesn't make them gay/bi because they're "like girls."

Just because a crossdresser tells you he's ""straight"" doesn't mean he actually is. These people tend to come from very "traditionalist" and regressive upbringings in regards to gender conformity and homosexuality. That's part of why they get off on crossdressing, because being even somewhat feminine they have been taught to consider as "forbidden" and wrong. They're not going to easily admit to being bisexual or homosexual, are they? Especially if they're far gone enough to consider themselves women.

[–]a_blue_bird 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm just pointing out that, 99% of the time, the term ONLY seems to be used when discussing trans people.

Because this term comes from research of MTFs and their sexual behaviour.

I have never been physically attracted to the body of a real life man. I don't like men.

If you aren't attracted to men, then it is difficult to see what makes you homosexual.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And MTFs aren't magical creatures. They are still capable of homosexuality or bisexuality.

I am sexually attracted to penises. Is this not same sex attraction, albeit a very basic and disconnected form? No, I do not like real men, but this is a very complex issue, and sexuality labels only serve to give an approximation or closest description of someone's sexual desire. I don't believe it's appropriate or necessary to create an arbitrary label for myself just because I don't experience any romantic attraction to men.

[–]a_blue_bird 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And MTFs aren't magical creatures.

For one, they are autogynephiles (pseudobisexuality only applies to AGP transsexuals), and most other people aren't. Even FTMs aren't. There is no reason to assume that everyone is identical to everyone else, and no difference is possible.

You seem to be taking this way more personally than you should.