Proposed SaidIt Policy Ideas For magnora7 To Consider - And For Your Feedback

submitted by JasonCarswell from (self.IdeasForSaidIt)

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Proposed SaidIt Policy Ideas For magnora7 To Consider

I'm hoping people will also consider offering their opinions, alternative ideas, and feedback. SaidIt is not a democracy (yet?), but there's no reason why we can't talk about it. Or maybe I'm way out of line. Lemme know.

SaidIt is the best forum site I know of (otherwise I'd be elsewhere). That said, via discussions here and there over the years, I've come up with countless ideas, good and bad, some old, some new, and it seems time to put these ones before the masses (again in some cases) in an actual post rather than just random comments here and there.

The Pyramid of Debate is a fine tool, the best I've seen, but it can use improvement. Not the pyramid itself, but extra devices to support it...

Supporting Examples

The PoD depends upon subjective judgement calls, yet those judgements have no support backing them. I'm not sure we need many more rules, if any, but IMO we certainly need to create logs of examples of what not to do (rather than more rules) for people to reference, discuss, debate, update, etc. This "PoD Examples List" could be kept in the Wiki List. This list can be as short or get as long as you like, yet not affect the concise rules, while offering greater contextual understanding with examples. How these examples are to be documented, and by who - yet to be determined.

3 Expiring Strikes + 3 Banishments

Obvious spam and asstrolls are not at issue here and can be swiftly dealt with as before. However, IMO, banishing generally productive users could be improved upon. Firstly, we need all strikes to be on record, ideally on a wiki list, linking to the "criminal" event(s). IMO strikes should not be eternally looming over one's head, so all strikes should have expiration dates to be determined (ie. 1 year). In the midst of heated conflict between overlapping comments, emotional PMs, and non-linear response times, tempers may fly along with reason out the window. Defenestrations aside, we really need progressive banishments to allow all parties to cool down, maintain civility, yet show how serious it's getting - so I propose a 1 week, 1 month, and 1 eternity banishments. 3 strikes and 3 levels of banishment. Simple.

Public Square

For years I've been calling for a "public square" of sorts which sounds nicer than "SaidIt Courtroom" to handle all of SaidIt's conflicts, disputes, and discipline openly. Plus folks could also discuss improving policy and/or improving rules on occasion - all subject to magnora7's approval of course. People would volunteer for that stuff, and they can either be good or bad at it and be weeded out accordingly. It may attract those seeking drama and blood sport, but they can be moderated as necessary. Centralizing the problems could make SaidIt easier to manage, both as a community and for magnora7 who already has enough to deal with. Plus it may be a good place to catch up on local SaidIt events if one steps away for a bit. If we all were to be proactive in our own community (rather than just using this as another "free service") then we could almost govern ourselves and only have to call in magnora7 to render our collective decision. This judgement by our own respected peers might be better received and would also lessen any potential impression of M7 being the big bad dictator with arbitrary decisions and no time nor need to explain them. More minds is better than one overworked M7.

All of this is my own simpleton system, even in part, better than what exists - and I'm sure if other folks put their minds to it, individually or collaboratively, we could come up with even better ideas too. I also understand my ideas above would make for more "paperwork" but also provides more clarity, security, and hopefully efficiency (otherwise it would need revising).

I'd love to hear your views, ideas, and feedback, even if I may not agree, I may still learn something. IMO, we should always be striving to improve, and SaidIt policies, while already good, are no exceptions.

I never ask for votes, but in this case I ask for them only if you want magnora7 and/or other people to consider this post before it's lost in the torrent of daily posts and carried off into the vast ocean of time.

 

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[–]magnora7 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the ideas. We already give people 2 strikes, and those strikes are always public unless they're just new accounts clearly abusing the system. Levels of banishment would be nice, like a 24h ban and a week-long ban would be nice, but someone has to code this, and I think this idea is like number 75 on our to-do list that's almost 100 items long...

The public square idea is interesting, but I think reality it would just lead to very long protracted arguments about what belongs and what doesn't all the time, and I don't think that's beneficial for the website, nor do I have the time or energy to do so on a regular basis. You're basically asking me to spend my day getting in to fights with people about if they belong, in public, on a regular basis. Talk about emotionally draining... It's already taxing enough as it is.

Thanks for the thoughts though, I do appreciate people looking in to how saidit could improve.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'm happy you've received these well, as intended.

I hadn't even considered putting a timer on the bans to automate the process - good idea, though I understand why coding it might not be a priority. I was only thinking more about a policy for a "time out". Further, it would also provide you an opportunity to actually apply punishment without it being permanent. Whether you choose to use it more frequently, to show how serious you are and that you mean it, or whether you choose to avoid it at all costs, is up to you. Having an open wiki record of it (or a private txt file or calendar reminder) could be easier than coding all that. Further - you could delegate the record keeping responsibilities to someone. (I don't volunteer for any of these, though I'm always open to do design work.)

What I think you missed about the public square is that you can let the people do their drama, and when they arrive at a conclusion, your trusted advisor(s) (of your choice) who have been following along can come to you with the verdict that's publicly and/or democratically reached among their peers. Ideally they resolve it among themselves. At worse it's Mad Max Thunderdome drama that's not much different than any other sub where opposing views are thrown about. The only time you'd need to step in is if someone were to slide way down the pyramid, which happens from time to time anyway, and your advisors will let you know - or if your advisors summarize and present the case to inform you that the people demand the axe. While the visage of an executioner is not pretty, IMO, it's less repulsive than being the judge, jury, and executioner. (Finding good advisors/referees might not be easy, or maybe it would.)

Ultimately the primary goal is to keep you free of the drama and let the people sort it out themselves - thus freeing up more of your time. Of course you can always lurk and/or step in at any time.

IMO, it's worth an experiment to see if it's viable. If it fails then that's too bad. If we don't try then we'll never know, and to me that's doubly too bad squared. At the very least we'd learn something and have a "Public Square" (or Tea Room, or whatever name you like), kinda like the chat but not.

Please reconsider and give it a test run. Or - before that giant leap, take a little step and ask people what they think about it. Maybe they'll like it. Or maybe it really is a lame idea. Or maybe they'll offer additional ideas and insights to make it better and convince you. We'll never know unless you ask. And you'll never know if it was a good way to free up your time.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (20 children)

/u/magnora7, /u/d3rr, /u/Tom_Bombadil, /u/useless_aether, /u/Jesus, /u/MojaveCoyote, /u/i_cansmellthat, /u/OldManCorley, /u/Froglich, /u/FormosaOolong, /u/Vigte, /u/YoungBriteEyedCorley, /u/Alduin, /u/Mnemonic, /u/Broken-needles350, /u/wizzwizz4, /u/SundogsPlace, /u/StalwartJames, /u/BillionDollarEgg3, /u/kazenmusic, /u/WikiSpooks, /u/Robin, /u/happysmash27, /u/Rixon, /u/Voracious_Observer, /u/fred_red_beans, /u/Orangutan, /u/althekemist, /u/TheWebOfSlime, /u/hennaojisan, /u/Zombi, /u/EndlessSunflowers, /u/sawboss, /u/VantaFount, /u/Stankmango, /u/Entropick, /u/HibikiBlack, /u/Optimus85, /u/deumae, /u/CompleteDoubterII, /u/SierraKiloBravo, /u/Tiwaking, /u/HeyImSancho, /u/Snow, /u/go1dfish, /u/NPC, /u/beermeem, /u/techiejames, /u/Myrkskog, /u/x0x7, /u/Hellothereawesome, /u/a_man_a_plan_pancake, /u/zyxzevn, /u/Enza, /u/AbeFroman, /u/Jesus-Christ, /u/AnarchySpeach, /u/Zahn, /u/Velocity, /u/hennaojichan, /u/kokolokoNightcrawler, /u/book-of-saturday, /u/Aureus, /u/riyasteve, /u/Horrux, /u/christine_grab, /u/azaad, /u/Speak_Easier, /u/TiredJustTired, /u/PikonParadox, /u/DeWhoDeWho, /u/nbatman, /u/MarquisBoniface, /u/ElifromtheBook, /u/Questionable, /u/diogenesjunior, in no particular order.

Noted friends (and apologies to friends I've neglected to include), I don't want to spam but in this case I hope you can forgive me and chime in on this post, even if it's to chide me. I'm making this extra effort to gain traction on an even faster front page in the midst of the perpetual news cycle of the absurd. I hope you'll see my intentions are good and maybe agree that together we can help SaidIt and each other improve - and perhaps some of you may offer other better ideas to consider.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    Added.

    [–]kokolokoNightcrawler 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

    That didn't ping me..I wonder why, maybe I have mentions off in settings... Anyways, I like that you are trying to organize regular users...but I don't understand why in this matter...I see absolutely nothing wrong with current system of regulating speech or behavior on Saidit....

    I'm a simple man, I see something right, I will not try and fix it.

    But, if you used that organizing to for instance make people into promoters of Saidit on the wider net, that would be so beneficial! We need more users, more redpilled people who would like to contribute. Could make planned actions to "spread the word" that this is the real free speech and exchange of ideas zone!

    Basically, for a popular message boards you need loyal mods who are at the same time content machines and are pretty much on the same page...There should also be some kind of a financial incentive there, some revenue share program.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

    Thanks for chiming in. While I may or may not agree on some things, I value all opinions.

    " I see absolutely nothing wrong with current system of regulating speech or behavior on Saidit... "

    Without getting all COVID fear porn on you about imaginary threats, just because you don't see a problem doesn't mean there haven't been any. Also, you aren't the disciplinarian here, and the admin, and coder, and security, and leadership, and and and... My main goal is to lighten and redistribute the load and stress and to open things up for democratic input.

    " I'm a simple man, I see something right, I will not try and fix it. "

    Wisdom. Yet every passing day and every new user evolves SaidIt. Change is inevitable. Steering the change requires intention.

    " But, if you used that organizing to for instance make people into promoters of Saidit on the wider net, that would be so beneficial! "

    I love it! I've been doing my part in this regard here there and everywhere over the last 20 months. I also have a short animation that I need to finish for a SaidIt promo as well as ideas about SaidIt based aggregated newsletters for people who don't have time to filter through dozens and dozens of posts - plus some ideas about merchandising. But if we can't even talk to admin, get some decent "justice", and/or even get a "donate" button in the top right corner, then what point is there promoting a limited system that may not even be able to handle more people. Having a secretive admin is comparable to getting an auto-response from Silicon Valley and unless there's interactivity and community and purpose SaidIt is only a tool to be used until it is shut down, bought out, or we get banished.

    One more thing about reaching out. On the Ripple Effect there was an all-start truth-seeker video show and much of what they were talking about was the censorship thing, the diversity of options out there and the problems with all that. Meanwhile NONE of them were realizing that SaidIt is the aggregating truther-friendly hub they're all looking for to centrally post about their content off-site, regardless of what platform or archive system(s). IMO, we should really be hounding them, our favourite content producers, to post here to reach everyone. A good viral video might help.

    " We need more users, more redpilled people who would like to contribute. "

    Couldn't agree more. I'd love to see less left-right bickering.

    " Basically, for a popular message boards you need loyal mods who are at the same time content machines and are pretty much on the same page...There should also be some kind of a financial incentive there, some revenue share program. "

    I agree generally. Specifically, I have mixed feelings about "content machines". Quality is always better than quantity, and IMO that also includes organization. (SaidIt's search is lame, the subs are chaos, there are no metatags, people post in the same subs regardless of topical content, etc. Laziness abounds and there was nothing done to prevent it. Researchers here have their work cut out for them unnecessarily. But what's done is done.) Same page - generally. I know M7 was keen on bringing on some kind of crypto reward thing. I like the idea too. I have concerns about how it might be implemented as in other cases there have been imbalances and such. Steemit has whales rewarded for content, curating, and commenting. Other things have been rigged too. Half the time it's a popularity contest not based on merit - plus people get stingy with their votes. There's already an arbitrary 40 sub limit for COVID-like precrime "reasons" like maybe someone might abuse their mod powers. (How about if someone is abusive then you deal with it, rather than preemptively limit them for anti-sub-hoarding appearances.) If SaidIt monetized then suddenly this whole place might take on a new darker character and whether it's subs or posts or comments or whatever that generates the cash, people will be after it. I already know of some loopholes though I haven't used them, nor had to. But I digress... generally speaking, financial revenues would be nice. It would be nicer if it were open, transparent, and trustworthy.

    [–]kokolokoNightcrawler 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    Oh, hell yea dude, there are a lot of issues, but they are microscopic in comparison to the censorship games I'm used to on other boards... I've seen it so much in the past. Moderation and arbitration on internet forums really is an authentic mirror for the corruption of human species in general.

    It IS a popularity contest. But I'm more interested in the popularity of ideas and you can't have popularity without populace. It's one of those priority issues imo...It might be more of a priority to first attract the population and then think of democratic ways of governing over them.

    Having a secretive admin is comparable to getting an auto-response from Silicon Valley and unless there's interactivity and community and purpose SaidIt is only a tool to be used until it is shut down, bought out, or we get banished.

    Can only operate on good faith here. The owner has left us a very extensive git repository to carry on in case he falls ill to anything of the above mentioned. The owner might also be risking a lot, possibly his IRL job and income. the need for discretion might be critical.

    I think I got your number tho. The main thing that's pissing you off is the lack of structure, being the librarian type that you are...As a chaotic personality like myself, I find that funny, that you're irritated so much lol.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    No doubt. Censorship is a legit issue here too. I've had unclarified 2 strikes (or more) like an axe over my head for well over a year with no recourse or say in the arbitrary matter. I've decided not to give a shit about that and just be myself anyway and let the community defend me if it comes to that, unless I actually make a legit mistake or few. Others have had the axe dropped on them where it might have been much better had others stepped in to diffuse it. Or maybe it would have been worse drama. We'll never know and we never get the chance to find out if there is a better way unless we ask for and get change.

    It seems like a chicken or egg thing to me. Policy and population. Is it easier to course correct after or lay down the path first? Or even more importantly - do we even get a say?

    I agree about the anonymous discretion stuff. Though unless the NSA is bullshitting us about recording everything, they already know who he is and could likely have him squashed like a bug any time they want (with some martyr blow-back). Same for any of us. But that secrecy is only critical to administration of the site - not the policies on how it's utilized and moderated.

    I certainly had hopes that SaidIt could be a better librarian-friendly organized site for researching content, but that ship has long since sailed (and that's why in the fall I'll also be doing more on and for WikiSpooks). I can tolerate the general chaos (growing with new members), yet still find there's hope for not only improved policies on our community's "justice system" but also terrific potential to help M7 co-manage ourselves to make his life easier to better handle the incoming chaos.

    The dishes and laundry and chores are piling up with the weight of the world - so the parents get the kids to clean up after themselves and do some chores to make life easier and fair for everyone. Simple shit man. It's not reinventing the rocket surgery. We can do better.

    [–]kokolokoNightcrawler 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    But that secrecy is only critical to administration of the site - not the policies on how it's utilized and moderated.

    Public moderation logs are really awesome. We had an issue recently with Magnora deleting loads of posts and some comments on IP2...After IP2 mods complained and demanded reasons for such actions, it turned out mag was getting notice emails from the hosting provider to "handle" this content. It's really interesting , https://saidit.net/s/Ice_Poseidon2/comments/5a2y/magnora_is_currently_removing_old_posts_he/ this exchange. I've told you before, (((marxists))) are coming for all of us, but first it will be people like him who are free speech facilitators.

    WikiSpooks is awesome, I read it all the time. God bless you as well for being a part of that.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Thanks for that info. I'll read it in a bit. I find it a freaking shame that M7 isn't more open about stuff like that. Then again, I haven't been keeping up on current events much lately anyway. I understand he has pressures but it would go down much easier for the rest of us if we actually were aware instead of him "sneaking around" and/or "protecting us" like that. I'm guessing ultimately it was justified or you would have said more.

    FYI, it's not just the Commie-Marxists nor just the ZioCons (who just let it all happen unchallenged) - it's the entire totalitarian corporatocracy.

    I aim to improve WikiSpooks by developing ways to present stuff to normies. For example: an easy glossary of deepstate and tradecraft (spycraft) terms that most people don't fully understand. Honeytrap and psyop may be pretty well known, but deepstate, pedogate, limited hangout, sheep dipping, crisis actor, Building 7, Gladio B, noble lie, Agenda 21, Hegelian dialectic, Machiavellianism, Hanlon's razor, ponerology, kakistocracy, B.I.S., monopoly on violence, dynamic silence, etc etc etc ad nauseum are largely foreign to most people.

    I also want to bridge the WS and SI communities to be more crossover interactive and we're developing some ideas to pitch to everyone. Some stuff recently just came up (at least suddenly to me) and we'll soon be discussing it all completely openly soon, once we figure out how to start the conversation without looking like we're winging it (which we are). I had a lot of plans for WS in the fall but some might actually have to happen ASAP. Some of this stuff we've been loosely dreaming and spitballing for ages, but now it seems we need to do or die and actually make it happen. Some of it is ambitious. Some of it could be epic. Or maybe it will suck. If we don't try we won't know. Sorry to sound so mysterious, but much will all come out soon. You and everyone will be very welcome to join in and help in anyway you see fit.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

    So i didn't make it. Make me prominent or make the text red, idk.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

    You are still there, 3rd from last.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

    So im your third most hated "friend"? Nothing against the three. I in fact like threes.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

    No. The list is likely in order in which I added people to my friends list. There have been many more added after, since July 2020. https://infogalactic.com/info/User:JasonCarswell/blurb#JasonCarswell.27s_SaidIt_Friends_List_2021-06-19 I've also since learned that only 3 names in a single comment get notified, so my mass-comment didn't actually work.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    You know, sometimes i fight you just for fun. Don't take this the wrong way. I like you.

    And because i CAN.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

    What do you get out of it besides being an annoying timesuck and decreasing your status with me? We all have better things to do.

    Why not do this to socks instead?

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    I really like your answer. But since we as magicians are very lonely here, i make you my gollum. AGAIN: Don't take it personal.

    The first TRUTH i heard in a very long time. You're even better than my granpa.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    You want me(?) to fight him. Nigga please. King of Trolls doesn't need a title.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Timesuck vs timesuck.

    Incomprehensible esoteric woo and argumentative nonsense don't impress me.

    Find another stinking mud slave. No more time for you.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    It's more a little disappointing at the weak response (after only 2 hours) and that every time I bring up things like these few people notice, despite always having great feedback in the comments. It's almost like, dare I say, policy issues are being suppressed. Or, more likely, people don't like reading blocks of text - even if it means improving this site and their lives.

    [–]Optimus85 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    Those are pretty good ideas. I'm all for more transparency and a more democratic approach to banning.

    [–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Not just banning, but I'd also like to see a more democratic approach to policies too, not that we really need to much if anything on that front, at present. Usually the policies just gets handed down, and then people comment on it. That's worked so far, but I'd rather see the problem thrown out there with a request for solution ideas.

    I'd also love for there to be an active SaidIt roadmap with software plans, site goals, community goals, etc. with an occasional changelog type update of things that have been accomplished, upgrades, remaining issues, and problems (much like the /s/SaiditCanary). It doesn't have to be regular or monthly even and it certainly needn't be a long manifesto. I'm guessing some of this may already be on GitHub (which is all Greek to me and others). Armed with this info we might be able to collectively be more proactive and raise funds for code-bounties if there was a particular function that was desired but needed code development. If nothing else, a roadmap would help make SaidIt feel less ephemeral, rudderless, and potentially censored/shut down at any moment - while providing a more driving purpose and a stronger sense of community meaning for those who may seek it.

    Above all, I'd love for us to find better ways of working together and to ease the stresses, strains, and burdens of M7 in whatever ways we can. We can't help if we don't know about them. Maybe I've missed it, but to my knowledge M7 is not one to ask for help or delegate when he probably could or should.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Yes. As well as a lot of technical ideas and more, much of it is even organized in the (Wiki List)[https://saidit.net/wiki/index#wiki_wiki_list) going back over a year and a half ago. And most of it has been ignored. Much understandably - considering there were only 2 of them trying to revive the old Frankenstein Reddit-code and improve on it - while also trying to run the site, avoid attacks, admin, mod, and keep up on current events. No small task. But also not delegated. Keeping the cards close to the chest can be wise and it can also keep you isolated and limited, not to mention stressed, strained, and overtaxed - and under-thanked.

      I'm hoping this might inspire a decent conversation and maybe light some fires under peoples asses and imaginations and/or even get people to all ask for something(s). Ultimately it all comes down to the approval or veto of one guy with many great ideas for SaidIt, yet limited, being only human.

      While I'm primarily preoccupied with stuff for a few months, eventually upon my "return" I may even become motivated to start conversations about developing another new SaidIt-like site that is more organized to be better utilized for research (well organized subs, categories, metatags, etc), with better voting tools, broader decentralization, and with MUCH more open transparent democracy on policies, site goals, marketing/funding, etc. I would even expect to become a minority on some issues on this new site, but that comes with democracy. However, I'm just not a coder guy, so all I can do is talk about much of it impotent without an army of coders. Or, another option would be to find a very popular existing open-source forum with some robust functionality and custom skin it to appear and act much like SaidIt/Reddit does, and then introduce the extra features. Again, easier said than done. But honestly, I'd rather just improve SaidIt than DivideIt, and if any of us were to make a serious effort and fork off, it would absolutely have to be significantly different and improved, both technically and community-wise - not just another Reddit-Lite. (I wish I'd bothered to learn what forum software the QxR was using before they packed it in as that was excellent, though very different that the Reddit-style. I'm not too forum savvy.)