Thoughts on Intersex People

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[–]BiologyIsReal 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What you need to know is most trans identified people are NOT intersex. The vast majority of them are unambiguosly XY male or XX female (1). However, they keep dragging them in the discussion because they know this topic is confusing for a lot of people.

I'd advice against arguing with TRA about intersex unless you learn more about the topic first. Sex development is a complex process and, as such, many things could go wrong. That is why in rare cases people are born with a disorder of sex development (DSD) (2). The cases where there is a incongruence between sex chromosomes and fenotype, or ambiguous genitals are even rarer (3, 4). Also, DSD is an umbrella term for a heterogenous group of medical conditions, so wherever possible it's best to talk about a specific condition rather than make broad generalizations. Either way, sex is not a spectrum and people with these conditions are still either male or female (5).

BTW, people with Klinefelter syndrome (47, XXY and other variants) are male (6, 7).

Edit: format

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm well aware majority of people claiming to be trans are not intersex. I already figured people use the intersex condition in their argument because of the lack of general understanding of sex development. I haven't argued against one yet, I'm just making sure I am able to argue against one. I saw one in the youtube comments section claiming to be in med school and using intersex conditions to justify supporting delusions, majority of people who replied called BS on their claims thankfully.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I'm just thinking about how a person looks like a female, but has a dick and has XXXY chromosomes should address themselves.

Persons with XXXY chromosomes have a difficult enough time as it is in life without claiming they look female, and suggesting they should be seen and spoken of as not male or as less male than other persons of their sex. Persons with XXXY chromosomes are 100% male with a complex medical condition that affects only males. They deserve compassion as all persons with congenital diseases and developmental disorders and anomalies that mark them as "different" do, which means not using them as props in convos and arguments about gender ideology.

48,XXXY syndrome is a chromosomal condition in boys and men that causes intellectual disability, developmental delays, physical differences, and an inability to father biological children (infertility). Its signs and symptoms vary among affected individuals.

Most boys and men with 48,XXXY syndrome have mild intellectual disability with learning difficulties. Speech and language development is particularly affected. Most affected boys and men can understand what other people say more easily than they themselves can speak. The problems with speech and communication can contribute to behavioral issues, including irritability and outbursts or temper tantrums. Boys and men with 48,XXXY syndrome tend to have anxiety, a short attention span, and impaired social skills.

Given their difficulties with verbal communication, raising the issue of how these boys and men "should address themselves" strikes me as inappropriate, insensitive and downright offensive.

48,XXXY syndrome is also associated with weak muscle tone (hypotonia) and problems with coordination that delay the development of motor skills, such as sitting, standing, and walking. Affected boys and men tend to be taller than their peers, with an average adult height of over 6 feet.

Other physical differences associated with 48,XXXY syndrome include abnormal fusion of certain bones in the forearm (radioulnar synostosis), an unusually large range of joint movement (hyperextensibility), elbow abnormalities, curved pinky fingers (fifth finger clinodactyly), and flat feet (pes planus). Affected individuals may have distinctive facial features, including widely spaced eyes (ocular hypertelorism), outside corners of the eyes that point upward (upslanting palpebral fissures), and skin folds covering the inner corner of the eyes (epicanthal folds). However, some boys and men with 48,XXXY syndrome do not have these differences in their facial features.

48,XXXY syndrome disrupts male sexual development. The penis is shorter than usual, and the testes may be undescended, which means they are abnormally located inside the pelvis or abdomen. The testes are small and do not produce enough testosterone, which is the hormone that directs male sexual development. The shortage of testosterone often leads to incomplete puberty. Starting in adolescence, affected boys and men may have sparse body hair, and some experience breast enlargement (gynecomastia). Their testes typically do not produce sperm, so most men with this condition are infertile.

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/48xxxy-syndrome/

It's regressively sexist to suggest that males with serious medical problems are somehow female. It takes us back to the dark ages when females were basically regarded as "defective" or deficient males.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

TRAs like to claim that "intersex people are perfectly healthy and happy". It's nice to confirm this is not always true and they were talking out of their ass. They stated to this person who said it's an awful condition, but I personally think that the person they were replying to just knew it was not a good condition and not simply "how" it was a bad condition because it would be pretty easy to argue how it's a developmental disorder (not to mention, they were generalising a group of sex development disorder) if you knew the impacts of having an extra chromosome.

Note: Need to clarify for people who can't read and then act like a typical offended sjw over terminology, I wasn't part of the argument. I knew already there are different types of intersex conditions (I'm using that word for simplicity sake), the people who are arguing may be aware of the same thing too and I'm someone who is describing their argument to explain why I made the post.

Edit: Wording

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

They stated to this person who said it's an awful condition, but I personally think that the person they were replying to just knew it was not a good condition and not simply "how" it was a bad condition because it would be pretty easy to argue how it's a developmental disorder (not to mention, they were

Please stop talking about persons with diverse DSDs as if they all had the same condition and a singular disorder!

If you're going to opine on social media about medical conditions that other people have, please first learn about the basics of the conditions you're blathering on about.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you okay? All I was doing was recounting an incident I witnessed, if you read carefully, you would know I'm a witness to an argument, not a participant (hence the third person references) and I'm describing what happened in the argument, which is people using the word "intersex" and there's been an argument whether it was a disorder or a perfectly healthy condition, in this context it's been treated as a single thing, it wasn't me who was treating it like a single thing. I wanted to participate in the argument, but I felt my knowledge was off, so I didn't.

Take your head out of your ass and learn to read before giving ignorant advice.

[–]ColoredTwice 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

First of all, there never both gonades functioning. So we can't be "both". It is impossible - we are always either male or female. We never "both".

Assigning at birth was medical malpractice that was often leading to IGM. Nowadays a lot of where it is either outlawed or thought as malpractice and not encouraged.

Second - in USA there are transgender and non-binary people around 10-20 times more than all intersex people, so even if all intersex people would be trans - we would be minority there. And in reality few years ago only around 0.8-1% of intersex people were trans.

Lastly, knowing sex is very important for our treatment and to know what complications we can have later in life. My condition (salt-wasting CAH) in heavy cases like mine require to identify sex in first 3 hours of life, or toddler will die (or become disabled if treatment was too late or wrong). Previously only boys were often surviving with it, but girls dying - because our bigger virilized clitoris was looking "similar to small penis", so we were receiving treatment for boys (plus treatment for boys can wait up to 10-14 hours, while for girls only 2-4). And when medicine came to realization that we are just your regular females with virilized body - most girls are now saved as well. And speaking about genitals - no, my bigger clitoris is not "male genitalia". It works like any other clitoris, just bigger in size and it does not work like penis at all - I can't pee throught it, I can't ejaculate at all, and so on. I am your typical woman, just looking a bit more masculine. That's it.

Best description will be - we are like people with congenital heart disease, but instead of heart we have issues with sexual development. We aren't some mythical beast.

There 40 different DSD's under this umbrella. All different.

Try following on Twitter @zaelefty (and his channel), @AlexAlicit or @RaeUK for more details, they often discussing such issues and linking studies.

[–]lefterfield 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

they share sexual characteristicss of both sexes

This isn't accurate with the vast majority of people that fall into the intersex category. The answer to a lot of your questions would be helped by doing research into specific intersex conditions that afflict males and females(since they are one or the other). But in terms of arguing with genderists, intersex is a distraction and a fallacy.

How should an intersex person determine their pronoun?

Unless there are extremely unusual circumstances not normally seen in the day of modern medicine and children being almost exclusively being born in hospitals(at least in the west) it would be based on their observed sex at birth. The number of people that would fall into the 'unusual circumstances' category is miniscule, and can thus be handled on an individual basis. Not as a social issue the way rewriting laws regarding sex is.

person looks like a female, but has a dick and has XXXY chromosomes

They're male. Phenotypical appearance is largely irrelevant. Chromosomes are relevant only to the extent that we know if the baby has an active SRY gene. If they have a penis, they definitely do, so they're male. Ten billion extra X chromosomes don't change that.

baby has two sexual characteristic

It would really depend on the specific intersex condition. It sounds like this documentary was an extremely unusual case so would fall under 'individual issue' rather than a societal one. Most TRAs are ignorant of intersex conditions, so if you bother debating with them about this fallacial distraction at all:

  • Ask which intersex condition specifically they mean
  • Ask if there is an active SRY gene
  • Ask what sex the doctor identified the child as having

That's really all that matters when it comes to intersex individuals. It's nothing to do with transgenderism, nor the legal privileges they demand.

[–]ColoredTwice 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It would really depend on the specific intersex condition. It sounds like this documentary was an extremely unusual case

It was either misrepresenting the case or it was documentary about that one single case from 1800s which we know almost nothing and there genital mutilation took place, so most likely they mistreated someone and misjudged the condition after.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know what's meant by two sexual characteristics. No one has both a fully formed penis and vagina, or both testis and ovaries, or two active gonads. Without more information, I'd just say I need to know the specific intersex condition.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks for replying, I already established that someone with a Y chromosome would be male no matter what (as it's only males with a Y chromosome) and that the law should not change to cater to such a tiny minority, but lately that feels like a weak argument in my head and I began wondering if maybe I haven't done enough research to properly argue, which seems downright concerning. I tried looking up the characteristics of intersex people because people say "they share the caracteristics of both sex", the best I get is they're either sterile, or their secondary sexual characteristics do not work, or they have an incidents where they are developing those secondary characteristics have begun functioning when they hit puberty (though, that part was anecdotal, I haven't managed to find something which disproves those incidents), which made me think I really got to question my understanding of human physiology because I'm worried that I have made some incorrect assumption (it seems like my assumptions are confirmed to be correct and I'm on the right track).

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Zach Elliot at the Paradox Institute has done an excellent series of clear, short videos explaining DSDs in general, and is doing a series giving each specific DSD condition its own dedicated video. He also provides written transcripts of each video in PDF form, and lists all his sources.

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/pi.html

I suggest following him on Twitter too. He's quite bright and an excellent communicator.

My own approach - and advice - is to avoid using the term "intersex" altogether, and instead use other terms such as DSDs (differences/disorders of sex development), VSCs (variations of sex characteristics).

My own approach -and advice - is also to avoid making generalizations about DSDS, a group of very diverse medical conditions that really don't belong lumped together. DSDs are as different to one another as, say, blood disorders are. Just as there's a huge difference between hemophilia, leukemia, hereditary hemochromatosis, iron deficiency anemia, pernicious anemia, thrombophlebitis and so on, there's a huge difference between all the various DSDs.

Moreover, most DSDs are sex-specific. In other words, they occur only in either males or females. There are some that affect the development of male humans, and others that affect the development of female humans. No one with a DSD is in-between sexes or a combination of sexes. All are male or female.

I tried looking up the characteristics of intersex people because people say "they share the caracteristics of both sex", the best I get is they're either sterile, or their secondary sexual characteristics do not work, or they have an incidents where they are developong those secondary characteristics have begun functioning when they hit puberty

None of the generalizations in that sentence apply to all of the conditions commonly lumped together under the term "intersex" or DSD.

Many TRAs use the intersex condition in their arguments.

Which just goes to show they don't know what they are talking about. Fact is, there is no such thing as "the intersex condition."

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sounds like you have the right assumptions, yes. I know when you get a lot of people bombarding you with tangential nonsense you might start to second-guess yourself. That's what they count on. I just wouldn't worry about arguing about intersex conditions at all. A lot of TRAs that I've seen will say things blatantly untrue, and when asked for evidence will post things that contradict themselves and they'll STILL keep saying it. It's completely useless. They don't give two shits about intersex people themselves, anyway.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh definitely. I just really want to cover my bases the next time someone makes a bullshit comment and then I'm left regretting that there's not enough to call people out on their bullshit in this area, because TRAs are using it.

[–]kwallio 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The wikipedia article on disorders of sex development is very helpful -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development

Although given the "controversial/unsourced" flag at the top which is new I guess its not long for this world.

I have yet to see an argument from a trans person which actually explains a link between intersex disorders and trans people, usually its thrown out as some sort of gotcha argument without much explanation. What is similar are the surgical interventions that trans people can get are also sometimes performed on intersex individuals in order to look more like one sex or the other.

One thing I would like to point out is most intersex individuals can be assigned to one sex or the other but their development as that sex may be incomplete.

I would also like to point out that in general they are rare. From seeing trans arguments online you would think that every other person is intersex but its not true (and not relevant to trans people in any case).

The actual disorders are very different, require different treatments and have different effects on the human body.

looks like a female, but has a dick and has XXXY chromosomes should address themselves.

Generally the presence of the y chromosome will result in a male, regardless of the number of x chromosomes.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm well-aware "intersex" (still going to use that term for simplicity sake) rare, I'm more concerned about my seeming lack of ability to argue. Majority of trans tend to be just a mentally-ill deluded nutcases.