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[–]Britishbulldog 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I miss it too- never experienced, only heard about it (I’m 21). If I’m honest, I despise modern feminism. It literally centers men in everything. First we had ‘men can be feminists’ to try to get them onside. Fair enough, I don’t agree, but if it proves to be a successful tactic for getting shit done, then FINE. But, give an inch and they’ll take a mile- or in this case, a whole fucking LIGHT YEAR. And now men can be feminists, and feminism is about male pleasure, male fetish, the male right to women’s bodies, etc. The more I think about it, the more I loathe modern feminism. Finding online spaces with mostly lesbians and women outside and often older than my usual circle (uni, aka wokeford) makes me believe it still exists. It’s dying out and myself and any other young millennials/Gen Z reading this must keep it going.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You never here about men into knitting, crotcheting or baking being gender nonconforming really, it is men that wear dresses and are obsessed with make up.

Some AGPs are into superficial "feminine" coded behavior like knitting. Jane Fae, a prominent "TW" and ardent defender of extreme porn from the UK, makes a point of ostentatiously knitting in public, especially when amongst women.

But I agree with your overall point. These men see being female in a way that isn't just stereotypical - it's superficial, shallow and entirely one-dimensional.

None of these men ever show an interest in - much less enthusiasm for - taking on the far less glamorous and unsexy chores and duties that get relegated to females, such as wiping runny noses, changing dirty diapers, washing the dishes, doing laundry, swallowing their anger and pride, putting other people's needs first, biting their tongues, making sure everyone around them is warm, fed and happy, buying and wrapping all the holiday gifts, sending thankyou notes and birthday cards, arranging their work and professional lives around childcare needs and school schedules, being the ones who shoulder the burden of taking care of elderly and infirm relatives and neighbors ... and so on.

One quibble, though, just to keep up my reputation as this sub's most annoying pedant: not everyone sees baking as a female or "feminine" pastime or occupation, whether done professionally, industrially or at home. Baking might be a mainly female thing in the Middle East and Africa and perhaps parts of Asia too, though I am not sure. In the Western world, though, baking is a pastime and occupation that involves a whole lot of men.

Visit any bakery in a Western country, and no matter what type of bakery it is, you'll find a lot of men working there. Lots of the artisan baked goods I get are made by men. I used to frequent a bakery where the male baker made the most wonderful, creative cakes for my kids' and other loved ones' birthdays based on drawings, designs and pictures I gave him.

Two loaves of American commercially-made bread in my house in the US at the moment have the brand names "Dave's" and "Rudy's" - both of which are male names. One of the most popular US baked items, Thomas' English Muffins, are named after their creator, Samuel Thomas. And here's an excerpt from the 1985 obituary of another big male name in American baking, Paul Dean Arnold, founder of Arnold Bakeries:

A broad-shouldered, athletic man with blue eyes and a soft-spoken manner that belied his business acumen, Mr. Arnold began baking bread in a Connecticut garage with a $600 investment in 1940. By the time he retired 30 years later, he had built a company with 3,000 employees, $80 million in annual sales and a name known up and down the Eastern Seaboard.

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/04/06/nyregion/paul-dean-arnold-ex-chairman-of-baking-concern-is-dead-at-76.html

BTW, Arnold had previously worked for the National Biscuit Company, which as Nabisco is now one of the major manufacturer of cookies and crackers in the world. This baked goods behemoth originated as Pearson's & Sons Bakers (a clearly male outfit) in 1792, which later merged with the Josiah Bent Bakery (another clearly male outfit) and several others that all appear to have been founded and run by men. When National Biscuit was formed, it was by men.

In lots of cultures and countries outside the US, baking isn't now seen as something that primarily or only women do, nor has it been viewed this way historically.

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20190825-the-perfect-french-baguette

https://www.scoopwhoop.com/International-Pastry-Chefs/

https://www.confectionerynews.com/Article/2020/10/28/Pierre-Marcolini-awarded-Best-Pastry-Chef-in-the-World-accolade

https://www.foodandwine.com/desserts/cedric-grolet-interview-best-pastry-chef-world

https://blog.sfceurope.com/famous-pastry-chefs-from-around-the-world

This article suggests that the idea that baking is primarily done by women is an American one that comes from the influence of Fannie Farmer, author of a very popular late-19th century domestic cookbook aimed at women.

https://sandbox.spcollege.edu/index.php/2017/02/the-most-influential-pastry-chefs-in-history-and-their-contributions-to-food-culture/

But I'm not sure I buy this explanation. For various reasons - the high cost of fuel, efficiency of scale, the enormous heat put out by baking ovens (a problem in warm weather and places it's always warm), fear of fires and burn injuries to children in households, the flimsiness and flammability of domestic dwellings, etc - a lot of baking in colonial America and the US since it was founding was always done in communal kitchens outside the home - consistent with how it was done in many other places in the world as well. It made a lot more sense to keep large-scale ovens going in a separate facilities than to keep firing up and cooling down domestic ovens to meet the need of single households, especially in temperate or hot areas and seasons when so many people lived housing where people were large numbers of people were crammed-in cheek to jowl in just one or a few rooms. Given the capitalist ethos of colonial America and the US, communal baking ovens outside the home - typically built, stoked and operated by men - inevitably became commercialized and industrialized. Which causes this area of cookery to attract more and more men.

I grew up in a household and neighborhood in the US where the mothers were "1950s American housewives." Most of them that I knew prepared food and cooked for their families, but I only recall one who ever did any baking. Instead, baked goods were store bought, or delivered fresh to your door or stoop in the early morning hours by local bakeries, which back then customarily delivered just like dairies did with milk, eggs, butter and such.

Now that I've thought about it, I realize that amongst my peers and friends, there are many more men who are into domestic baking as a hobby than women. Amongst couples with children, it's always been the women who remember to buy a box of cake mix and canned frosting bearing a brand name like Betty Crocker's in order to make cupcakes that our kids could take to school on their birthdays; and it's always the women who make, buy or have a bakery make everyone's birthday cakes. What's more, only the women have routinely shown the forethought to always keep a stash of birthday candles and matches to light them stuffed away in a kitchen drawer or cupboard. But it's the men in these couples/families who are trading sourdough starters with one another, baking bread and seeing who can outdo one another by making the best tarte tatin and the most scrumptious and delicate pie crusts and pastries.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Some AGPs are into superficial "feminine" coded behavior like knitting. Jane Fae, a prominent "TW" and ardent defender of extreme porn from the UK, makes a point of ostentatiously knitting in public, especially when amongst women.

There are, though as someone who knits as a hobby and not for show, Jane Fae's performance knitting is quite eye-roll worthy. I've occasionally brought something to knit when I intended to be sitting outside on a nice day by myself. I could maybe imagine knitting while listening to a long lecture, though I've never done it. But outside of actual knitting groups, I've never seen real women (or non-agp men) knit while giving speeches or holding discussions on complex topics with other people. It would be incredibly rude, for one. For two, knitting is not an entirely mindless task. You would need to count rows or pay attention to the pattern at some point. In his case, I read the behavior as a way of dismissing either the people or the discussion as unworthy of his time or attention - so of course he does it "especially among women." Something which, again, I've never seen actual women do.

I agree about cooking, though there is still a stereotype of women doing the baking for the family. It's just that when men do it it's viewed as praiseworthy and they're seen as possessing a unique talent or remarkable skill. Even though, as you point out, it's quite a common male hobby.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think Jane Fae has modeled his needlework on the "revenge knitting" of Madame Defarge in "A Tale of Two Cities" - with every stitch and row, Fae is marking in his mind the name of each and every woman he wants to send to the gallows or guillotine for our uppity "wrongthink." And for the crime of having "eggshell skulls" that are easily crushed by male fists - which make men like Fae look bad when they beat women to death.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol... absolutely horrible imagery, but also made me laugh. I believe it.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think our entire concept of gender conformity is messed up. There are good ways to be classically feminine - caring for others, being empathetic, creative, patient, etc. Makeup can be creative if you're not focused on the shallow, self-absorbed side of it. There was a time when I read books on makeup artistry and studied nail art techniques, even though I don't wear makeup or paint my nails typically. But the art and theory behind it can be genuinely fascinating. Sticking strictly to feminine stereotypes, there's still an entire rainbow of positive ways to express oneself.

Yet these "feminine" men view women as catty, backstabbing bitches, basically, and so that's the way they behave. It's a mockery of what it means to be female, to take the very worst stereotypes and pretend that's what represents all women. Even most highly gender conforming women don't act like TIMs.