you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Something interesting I’ve noticed about a lot of trans-identified people is that they don’t fundamentally act like the gender they’re identifying as. Beyond appearance and genitals, as you mentioned, we have ways of identifying masculine and feminine traits that are a combination of inherent and learned behaviors. To be a man or a woman ultimately requires that one have experienced masculine/feminine conditioning and identity for the entirety of their formative years. Otherwise, you are simply mimicking behaviors like an actor, and nobody believes that actors are actually the roles they portray.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Which specific "masculine" and "feminine" traits so you think are inherent? Please name some "gender" traits that are exclusive to each sex.

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I meant that behaviors are a combination of physiology and conditioning. For example, the way a woman or man walks is heavily influenced by their pelvic anatomy.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for answering.

I agree that the way women and men walk is heavily influenced by our pelvic anatomy, as well by our different centers of gravity. But I don't see these differences as expressions of "femininity" and "masculinity" - aka gender - which is what I thought you meant when you referred to "masculine and feminine traits." I see these differences as linked to biology - aka sex.

Similarly, I see the very different ways that babies, toddlers, kids, adolescents, adults, the elderly, and people with various physical disabilities all walk as being mainly functions of physiology rather than conditioning. But where conditioning does come in to play and it does explain - or help explain - the different ways that people of different ages and different bodies walk, the conditioning is not necessarily conditioning that's meant to make people more masculine or feminine. It's conditioning to help people remain upright, to stay safe from falling over and bumping into things, and to move efficiently so that effort and energy are preserved and you don't constantly end up with body aches and pulled muscles. Conditioning, in other words, for other purposes.

In cultures where girls/women are highly indoctrinated by "sexy" and sexualized "gender" norms, yes some women learn to walk with a pronounced hip wiggle, or to glide through space in a way that would allow them to carry a book or filled glass atop their heads as girls in Western "finishing schools" used to be taught to do. In those cases, these sorts of learned behaviors can be viewed as the result of conditioning meant to get female humans to be "feminine" specifically.

Similarly, men who've learnt to walk with their chests puffed out, their shoulders squared back, their spines ramrod straight, their pelvis titled a certain way, etc as they often must do as part of military training and athletics deportment - that's conditioning too, conditioning that could be said to inculcate "masculinity."

At the same time, however, women in pretty much all cultures/locales walk in very distinctively female ways during the later stages of pregnancy and when we're holding a child (or two) braced against our hips or held to our breasts. These obvious gait changes are IMO because of female physiology, the extra weight we're carrying, and how it's distributed - not because of conditioning. And definitely not because of conditioning to be "feminine" - particularly not as today's genderists define femininity.

Fact is, conforming to "femininity" according to the genderists' conception of it would NOT mean walking and moving in the distinctly female ways billions of women across planet earth wal/move every as a matter of course: such as standing and walking for hours on end bent over rice paddies or farming plots, often with a baby or two in a sling on their backs; walking for miles each day with huge jugs or canisters of water, or other heavy goods, perched atop their heads; hauling heavy serving trays on their shoulders balanced by a bent arm underneath; or carrying huge loads of firewood on their backs for miles, loads that are so heavy the women are bent over so far that their faces are parallel with the ground and they can't straighten their spines even when the weight is taken off their backs ...

That's how real women all over the world walk every day. But none of 'em would be considered "feminine" ways of walking by anyone's view - particularly not in the narrow view of today's genderists in the parts of the world where regressive Western-influenced gender ideology has become entrenched. The way they see it, being "feminine" means prancing about in spike heels and wriggling and giggling like porn stars, sexed-up Instagram influencers, and the thoroughly scripted sex symbols of the silver screen era - not like the vast majority of actual flesh and blood women on earth today as well as in the past.

Even when the different behaviors and traits that can be observed in the two sexes are, in fact, partly, largely or entirely due to learning or conditioning, I am leery about saying this is always the result of conditioning specifically meant for the express purpose of making people "masculine" or "feminine," particularly in the narrow way that today's gender ideologues define these descriptors.

[–]leculdesac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would argue that biological males have a much greater tendency toward violent sexual behavior, grounded in biology and then conditioned over time. It's as inherent to males as is the tendency toward creating and navigating social hierarchies is among all humans. So yes, I think there are some "masculine" traits.

Not so sure about females other than biological drives toward caregiving infants, when you lactate when you see a baby--that sort of thing. But I think some caregiving can be learned and when males caregive for infants they actually develop some of these capacities, like recognizing their baby by their smell.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that males across the board have a much greater tendency towards violence, including sexual violence towards women and children, that is grounded in biology and is then conditioned over time by culture and social hierarchies.

But I'm not sure that these would be characterized as "masculine" traits even by those who embrace genderist ideologies. Some/many codes of "masculinity" teach that males are supposed to be chivalrous protectors of women and children, and to be providers and carers of children and women and respecters of the elderly. Not to be violent abusers, exploiters, menacers of them.

About the female caregiving drives, I agree with that too. Basically. However, I don't think it's true to suggest that women commonly lactate when we see a baby. If that happened, there'd be a whole lot of useless lactating going on, LOL.

What does happen is that women who've recently given birth and are breastfeeding often will respond to hearing their babies cry by having an immediate physiological response to produce more milk in the moment - along with an urge to go to the baby and breastfeed. And long after mothers have stopped breastfeeding and their own children have grown well past the breastfeeding stage, many women will remain incredibly and uncannily sensitive to the sound of an infant's - any infant's - wail, often resulting in twinges or funny feelings in the nipples.

Also, humans are capable of experiencing several emotions and physical sensations at the same time. So a mother who instinctively responds to her newborn's cries by being automatically spurred to go immediately to the baby to try to provide comfort, and by naturally having certain physiological reactions conducive to lactation and breastfeeding, still can be thinking "oh hell no, please fucking die" when she hears her beloved baby cry... And many mothers have a strong desire to throw their babies out the effing window even as they are breastfeeding, rocking and otherwise tending to them.