all 23 comments

[–]chrysthefeminist 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How does the same thing not apply to womanhood?

Double standards.

[–]MarkTwainiac 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

How does the same thing not apply to womanhood? If you ignore sex then you are ignoring centuries of oppression.

I think the question should be "how does the same thing not apply to sex and sex differences?"

Sex doesn't need to mean oppression, although that's what has happened over the course of the development of our species (also, the oppression of female humans by male humans has occurred and existed over many millennia, not just centuries).

But the main point is: even if one sex wasn't oppressing the other, sex and sex differences would still exist. And human sex differences go far beyond the appearance of the genitals that can be observed through the eye.

There are many thousands of ways that male and female human bodies differ from one another. Hundreds of these differences we pick up on visually in a snap. But thousands of others are communicated to us through different senses: smell, hearing, touch, taste, vibes, hairs on the backs of our necks...

The ability to discern whether someone is male or female is an innate, instinctive, elemental and essential feature of the human species and many other species. It involves instantaneously processing a vast amount of data we observe about others we meet without consciously thinking about which sex they are. It's the totality of another person that tells us what sex they are - not their genitals.

It's basically impossible for us humans to turn off our inborn capacity to figure out another person's sex in a hurry - babies and dogs can instantly tell a person's sex too. And it would be irresponsible for us adults with a fair amount of "lived experience" under our belts to try not to notice a person's sex because doing so would be to abandon all concerns about child and female safequarding.

[–]Anonimouse 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The response if I were on the other side of the fence would be to say that we aren't ignoring sex; sex just has no relation to gender. So we talk about people who menstruate, people who get erections, people with uterus...BUT, our romantic attractions should be to gender and not sex according to this crowd, and that's the context where it should be ignored.

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My response to that would be that attraction to sex is a inextricable aspect of our biology, and that attraction to gender is a proxy for sexual attraction.

[–]Anonimouse 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To which they say a lesbian should be fine with a TiF.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's basically impossible for us humans to turn off our inborn capacity to figure out another person's sex in a hurry - babies and dogs can instantly tell a person's sex too.

I am reminded of a ridiculous story from on reddit a while back from a woman whose husband was transitioning to be a trans woman and their dog who was scared of men but not women was still scared of him even though he was taking cross-sex hormones. It was about how they were distressed over the dog invalidating his womanly identity. Absolutely ridiculous. Also if your spouse is traumatizing your dog for the entire 4 years you’ve had your dog, find your dog a new home where they’re not constantly stressed out by the presence of your spouse even before they exhibited this erratic behavior of dressing up as a woman and getting upset that the dog is a transphobe.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/949mr0/dog_scared_of_men_and_my_trans_wife/

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Something interesting I’ve noticed about a lot of trans-identified people is that they don’t fundamentally act like the gender they’re identifying as. Beyond appearance and genitals, as you mentioned, we have ways of identifying masculine and feminine traits that are a combination of inherent and learned behaviors. To be a man or a woman ultimately requires that one have experienced masculine/feminine conditioning and identity for the entirety of their formative years. Otherwise, you are simply mimicking behaviors like an actor, and nobody believes that actors are actually the roles they portray.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Which specific "masculine" and "feminine" traits so you think are inherent? Please name some "gender" traits that are exclusive to each sex.

[–]SheSellsSeaShells 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I meant that behaviors are a combination of physiology and conditioning. For example, the way a woman or man walks is heavily influenced by their pelvic anatomy.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for answering.

I agree that the way women and men walk is heavily influenced by our pelvic anatomy, as well by our different centers of gravity. But I don't see these differences as expressions of "femininity" and "masculinity" - aka gender - which is what I thought you meant when you referred to "masculine and feminine traits." I see these differences as linked to biology - aka sex.

Similarly, I see the very different ways that babies, toddlers, kids, adolescents, adults, the elderly, and people with various physical disabilities all walk as being mainly functions of physiology rather than conditioning. But where conditioning does come in to play and it does explain - or help explain - the different ways that people of different ages and different bodies walk, the conditioning is not necessarily conditioning that's meant to make people more masculine or feminine. It's conditioning to help people remain upright, to stay safe from falling over and bumping into things, and to move efficiently so that effort and energy are preserved and you don't constantly end up with body aches and pulled muscles. Conditioning, in other words, for other purposes.

In cultures where girls/women are highly indoctrinated by "sexy" and sexualized "gender" norms, yes some women learn to walk with a pronounced hip wiggle, or to glide through space in a way that would allow them to carry a book or filled glass atop their heads as girls in Western "finishing schools" used to be taught to do. In those cases, these sorts of learned behaviors can be viewed as the result of conditioning meant to get female humans to be "feminine" specifically.

Similarly, men who've learnt to walk with their chests puffed out, their shoulders squared back, their spines ramrod straight, their pelvis titled a certain way, etc as they often must do as part of military training and athletics deportment - that's conditioning too, conditioning that could be said to inculcate "masculinity."

At the same time, however, women in pretty much all cultures/locales walk in very distinctively female ways during the later stages of pregnancy and when we're holding a child (or two) braced against our hips or held to our breasts. These obvious gait changes are IMO because of female physiology, the extra weight we're carrying, and how it's distributed - not because of conditioning. And definitely not because of conditioning to be "feminine" - particularly not as today's genderists define femininity.

Fact is, conforming to "femininity" according to the genderists' conception of it would NOT mean walking and moving in the distinctly female ways billions of women across planet earth wal/move every as a matter of course: such as standing and walking for hours on end bent over rice paddies or farming plots, often with a baby or two in a sling on their backs; walking for miles each day with huge jugs or canisters of water, or other heavy goods, perched atop their heads; hauling heavy serving trays on their shoulders balanced by a bent arm underneath; or carrying huge loads of firewood on their backs for miles, loads that are so heavy the women are bent over so far that their faces are parallel with the ground and they can't straighten their spines even when the weight is taken off their backs ...

That's how real women all over the world walk every day. But none of 'em would be considered "feminine" ways of walking by anyone's view - particularly not in the narrow view of today's genderists in the parts of the world where regressive Western-influenced gender ideology has become entrenched. The way they see it, being "feminine" means prancing about in spike heels and wriggling and giggling like porn stars, sexed-up Instagram influencers, and the thoroughly scripted sex symbols of the silver screen era - not like the vast majority of actual flesh and blood women on earth today as well as in the past.

Even when the different behaviors and traits that can be observed in the two sexes are, in fact, partly, largely or entirely due to learning or conditioning, I am leery about saying this is always the result of conditioning specifically meant for the express purpose of making people "masculine" or "feminine," particularly in the narrow way that today's gender ideologues define these descriptors.

[–]leculdesac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would argue that biological males have a much greater tendency toward violent sexual behavior, grounded in biology and then conditioned over time. It's as inherent to males as is the tendency toward creating and navigating social hierarchies is among all humans. So yes, I think there are some "masculine" traits.

Not so sure about females other than biological drives toward caregiving infants, when you lactate when you see a baby--that sort of thing. But I think some caregiving can be learned and when males caregive for infants they actually develop some of these capacities, like recognizing their baby by their smell.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that males across the board have a much greater tendency towards violence, including sexual violence towards women and children, that is grounded in biology and is then conditioned over time by culture and social hierarchies.

But I'm not sure that these would be characterized as "masculine" traits even by those who embrace genderist ideologies. Some/many codes of "masculinity" teach that males are supposed to be chivalrous protectors of women and children, and to be providers and carers of children and women and respecters of the elderly. Not to be violent abusers, exploiters, menacers of them.

About the female caregiving drives, I agree with that too. Basically. However, I don't think it's true to suggest that women commonly lactate when we see a baby. If that happened, there'd be a whole lot of useless lactating going on, LOL.

What does happen is that women who've recently given birth and are breastfeeding often will respond to hearing their babies cry by having an immediate physiological response to produce more milk in the moment - along with an urge to go to the baby and breastfeed. And long after mothers have stopped breastfeeding and their own children have grown well past the breastfeeding stage, many women will remain incredibly and uncannily sensitive to the sound of an infant's - any infant's - wail, often resulting in twinges or funny feelings in the nipples.

Also, humans are capable of experiencing several emotions and physical sensations at the same time. So a mother who instinctively responds to her newborn's cries by being automatically spurred to go immediately to the baby to try to provide comfort, and by naturally having certain physiological reactions conducive to lactation and breastfeeding, still can be thinking "oh hell no, please fucking die" when she hears her beloved baby cry... And many mothers have a strong desire to throw their babies out the effing window even as they are breastfeeding, rocking and otherwise tending to them.

[–]MezozoicGay 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

TiM's do not experience the same oppression from birth that women do

Considering situations like this they do not experience any similar oppression that women do. Only because they can't get pregnant themselves, don't have periods, world is looking at them differently.

[–]Anonimouse 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And then if we do start on those uniquely female issues, it can't be made gendered because we are ignoring the TiF's.

[–]MezozoicGay 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are still females, and as article in comment above and many other similar situations, are showing us - calling yourself a man will not change that fact and will not save from oppression (as it based on sex, not on gender).

[–]midgetmetalhead19 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because sexism isn’t an ‘ism’. Look at the hate crimes defined by the police (UK): racism, homophobia, islamophobia, transphobia. NOT MYSOGYNY. Women are being reclassified as a non-oppressed group. It’s okay to be hateful towards us. To say ignoring genitals is like ignoring race is to put sexism on a par with racism- which in the eyes of the law/institution, it just isn’t.

[–]Anonimouse 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Probably something about how TiM's are even more oppressed, as they were both women AND not cis so double oppression points.

[–]Literallyawoman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s so sad people who don’t even have gender dysphoria are so hung up on their bodies-it’s pure ego and so materialistic. We’re all so alike in many different bodies and that should be celebrated and accepted. Gender doesn’t define you as a person( though it sure as hell shapes your experiences in society) and alloting so much importance to your pronouns imho is so incredibly limiting to your soul.

Being born female is the female experience and like it or not you’re a woman if you’re born female and all that comes with it. You can be a female who presents masculine but you’ll never be a man. And why is that so awful? It’s like accepting your skin tone and ethnic background and the genetic and cultural experiences you have simply by being born into them. Being a woman is simply being born one it isn’t how you dress or sound or act. It’s just your body.

It’s also not something you can own for better or worse just by getting a vaginaplasty and wearing dresses. You can present as a woman but you literally aren’t and that’s where the problem lies-speaking for and over real women of all races just because you want to be one of us and live out your fantasy of womanhood-“the girlhood you missed out on” is a fantasy of bullshit! The reality is much darker and complex but only real women experience it and own it.

They want to sugarcoat it as men who want to be woman and just be accepted and go on with a normal life, but it's not about acceptance once you're demanding people deny reality, deny their personal boundaries, deny their personal labels and experiences to force your way into cosplaying and fetishizing their female trauma and female experience.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

John Cleese had quite a day on twitter taking apart the absurdity of self-ID

[–]Blank-out 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thousands of years worth of generational trauma, now men claim they are really women and in a way they are right because we sure as hell did not create the stereotype.

My mother and her mother and hers were slaves and I know none of them had a choice in their life regarding child-birth and their own futures. My father and grand father and great grand father chose for them.

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Based - and double standards - I posted this and just... augh

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/62t4/huh_this_is_a_whole_hole_woman_raped_by_tim_says/

Woman raped by TIM husband - says it's not the same as being raped by a man - but is the same as being raped by a woman - smh

I hate the ease of race analogies but we love putting racism narratives on interracial violence even in absence of evidence, and that biology does not matter in the case of interracial violence - but we refuse to put biological narratives on inter-sex violence -

Also relevant - sex offenders are common trans rights activists fighting for access to women's bathrooms - https://www.fpiw.org/blog/2016/08/11/there-was-a-certain-rape-a-look-inside-the-transgender-movement/

[–]luckystar 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I say this all the time. "Is saying you have to have black skin to be black 'reducing black people to their skin'?" Words literally have meanings.

[–]Cass 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People who call you ignorant for being color blind are racist. That's what you are if all you see is race.

So you're trying to find some logic for why leftist racist retard narrative does not apply to women's issues? This question doesn't make sense. Or, well, it applies on the basis of color. I just made a post about a politician claiming that if you are anti female genital mutilation then you are racist.

I'll explain leftist "u ignorant if u colorblind" logic on the basis of this example. Stuff like FGM becomes a race issue, because we're not color blind. If we were colorblind we would think FGM is savage and horrendous. But we see color in everything, so if FGM becomes a color issue then we can't be against it because it would mean being against color, which is BAD.

You take this logic and apply it to any situation:

  1. you have to look at what color the parties involved are

  2. the actual issue does not matter because if you're the kind of person who looks at color then you have to be on the side of the darkest colored individual involved

Easy peasy.

Now you might say "but wait! the women affected by FGM are also of color!". You're thinking like that because you can't see the big picture. In this case FGM is about colored culture, which trumps anything else.