all 28 comments

[–]neveragain 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Contrapoints did a video called Gender Critical; in the process of making the video he put out a request on Twitter asking for ex-GC thinkers to speak to him about why they had been GC. He summarises the responses he received (hundreds, allegedly) thusly: "A lot of the responses came from women with traumatic experiences with men, who at one point found comfort in a rigid view of gender where women and men are a completely separate species, where women are safe and men are dangerous."

I watched this video before I peaked properly, and thought it fit with the stereotype that "TERFs" are traumatised women who hate men. I also watched it again later while I was peaking more, and found it didn't fit with my own experiences. I'm not traumatised, I don't have a rigid view of gender at all, and I certainly do not hate men.

I'm not saying of course that Contrapoints made up these ex-GC thinkers. I think he most likely was contacted by ex-GC thinkers, or people who thought they were ex-GC thinkers, because I'm not sure how a "rigid view of gender" actually fits with gender critical thinking at all. Either the people Contrapoints talked to did not understand GC thinking, or Contrapoints did not understand what they were saying.

I will say that while I was in my long, long process of peaking I looked into the old GC subreddit a few times, and was always put off by posts that seemed unnecessarily cruel or mocking. I'm not particularly interested in mocking someone for the sake of it. I'm GC because the trans ideology has demonstrably gone too far: into women's spaces, into women's language; and is furthermore being used against children who are being groomed. It's gone too far because we are not even allowed to speak of the violations when we feel our spaces are being colonised. They have crossed the line where the rights they are demanding involves removing women's rights. That is why I finally peaked.

Contrapoints', in his video, comes to the conclusion that GC thinking is born from innate disgust triggered by trans people's appearances. I don't see how this is the case. I spent over ten years within the ideology as it grew -- I did not suddenly stop supporting the ideology because I looked at a trans person and decided they were ugly. In fact in the past I've found many trans people attractive -- they're people, and as with all people they can be beautiful or ugly or anything in between. I stopped supporting the ideology because the things they are doing in the name of progress is highly damaging and they either do not realise or are willfully ignorant. So I don't think it's possible for me to "unpeak" because I'm not suddenly going to start thinking that women should be called "birthing parents" instead of "mothers", or that children should be put on puberty blockers en masse, or that biological males should be able to self-ID into DV shelters for women.

PS: On the topic of pronouns, because I've referred to Contrapoints as "he/him" and this is quite frankly the first time in my life I've "misgendered" someone -- for a long, long time I have been a subscriber to the idea that you should use preferred pronouns because it is "kind". This is still true, but giving too much ground was how we got here in the first place. Last night, while thinking on this topic, I read an interesting article which won't be new to some of you: Pronouns are Rohypnol by Barra Kerr. I do believe now that it is helpful in GC discussion at the very least to use pronouns that describe the biological sex of the person being referred to. (And as for misgendering being "literal violence", I think it is far less harmful than telling a woman that she needs to suck some girldick until she learns to like it.)

[–]Terfenclaw 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I actually just finished watching this video in order to try to understand the other side better, and I'm disappointed by it. It was a very shallow, superficial overview of GC thinking. The main issue I take with trans activism is the effect of TW in women's single sex spaces like sports, shelters, locker rooms, and prisons, and there was basically no mention of this. The "cotton ceiling" was mentioned like it was a strawman when there are tons of stories of lesbians having this experience.

[–]neveragain 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was a very shallow, superficial overview of GC thinking.

Yes, precisely. In that sense it's a very good video for purposes of advancing the TRA ideology, because it presents strawman arguments for GC views which are easily dismissed. I really wonder if Contrapoints believes that he made a good faith representation here, or if he intentionally dumbed everything down. Before I fully peaked I really liked his videos because I thought they were sincere (I think I've actually watched all of them, some more than once), but now confronted with evidence that he's misrepresenting things like the cotton ceiling ... Well, it's just like all the other gaslighting that so many trans people have done, I guess.

I'm struck particularly now as I scrub back through the video with the segment on "Abolish Gender", which is a complete and utter strawman. Abolishing gender is not about deleting any and all gender expression so that we are now languageless robots, it's about expanding the range of accepted gender expression for both men and women. So a woman can feel comfortable with her womanhood however she chooses to express it, instead of girls who do not like the colour pink now being told that they're probably nonbinary or trans, and leaving everyone else to be labelled with "cis" as though we're happy about the walls of conformity closing in around us.

[–]Anna_Nym 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wasn't on the old board, but I've seen detrans and trans people on Twitter talk about it. The impression I got was that there was a lot of mockery and negative discussion of trans appearances. So that may be where Contra got the strawman about innate disgust.

I do not generally feel disgust at trans appearance, whether they are passing or not. But I do feel disgust at trans women who bimbofy themselves and then claim the bimbofication makes them a woman. It's not disgust at the appearance, but disgust at what the overall action signifies about their perception of women. This is different from a trans person dressing in a sexy way, although it's difficult to put that difference into words. I suspect everyone here knows exactly what I mean, though. It's also different to me from a man who knows he has a cross-dressing or other form of fetish and enacts it in an appropriate, consensual space without claiming it turns him into a literal woman.

Contra also claims not to have a fetishistic motivation for transitioning, but there is a lot of video evidence to the contrary. Ever since learning about that, I've become more skeptical about how honest Contra is.

[–]neveragain 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I do feel disgust at trans women who bimbofy themselves and then claim the bimbofication makes them a woman

You know, I was thinking about this and AGP the other day, and also thinking about Contra's AGP video. I watched that when I had no idea what the hell AGP was and just sort of accepted his dismissal of it at face value, and even then, there was a line in there that really put me off. It was the part where he's talking about how he doesn't have a fetish about his own body, and one of the justifications he uses is that (slightly paraphrased) "when there's developments I'll check it out, but I'm not like, 'Oh yeah I have tits now that's so hot' -- well, it's kind of hot. But hot in the sense that someone else might find them attractive."

And I was so taken aback because I was remembering my own experience going through puberty, growing breasts -- the whole deal with having to wear bras, having to worry if people could see the bra through my shirt, the self-consciousness -- I don't believe any young girl going through puberty is thinking, "awesome, now people can sexualise me." It was like cold water splashed in my face: this person does not and is not capable of thinking about breasts the way women think about them. This is the point of view of a male, through and through.

And the line about women buying lingerie for themselves as if it's a good argument for women having AGP! Absolutely no clue about what it means for a woman to accept and cherish her body. I mean why would he? He has no concept of the young girl, who is thrown into the uncertain and frightening ocean of the male gaze. So it follows that he has no concept of the woman, who brings herself to shore and embraces the body she once rejected, because its inexorable changing threw her into the depths.

[–]Anna_Nym 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, the more trans women are given space to talk, the clearer it is that AGP types have no idea what it's like to move through the world as a woman in an embodied way. And how can they? They lack the physical vulnerability; they lack the socialization; and very few of them pass at all. They have their own experiences, which are valid. I wish they were willing to claim and identify them. I think a lot of the tensions would be solved by that simple action of accepting their identities as what they are (trans women or trans men) and not trying to make them into something they simply aren't (natal women or natal men).

Unfortunately, the prominent activists are not willing to do this. The majority of trans people I've known in real life have been so much more grounded and honest about the differences between them and natal females or males. I think activism in the Internet area, unfortunately, rewards the most authoritarian and extreme ideologues of all types.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

This was a question that we had often in the debate sub. I have never seen anyone there saying they have seen it happen.

I personally have seen a GCer in the former main sub who one day went to a trans sub and begged them to "deterf" her, but it wasn't because she suddenly realized that GC ideology was wrong, she did it because she was tired of being considered evil and on the wrong side of history.

A couple of months ago there was a story about a woman who called GC communities a cult made to provide brides to powerful lesbians. She started "bragging" about breaking free from the GC grasps... but I don't think she is a good example of stability and clear mind.

Long story short, it doesn't seem like GCers who stop believing in GC ideology are a thing that happens often or even rarely, the ones who change sides do it usually because they have issues with how "mean" the community is or are tired of being attacked.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

GC communities a cult made to provide brides to powerful lesbians.

That's a bad thing? 😄

Seriously, I've personally seen no one running from GC. I peaked many years ago, and have no misgivings. Definitely feel saner on the daily post-peak (even in these times).

[–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

"deterf", LMAO

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That post of hers I have seen was absolutely nuts.

It was also heartbreaking: I don't remember her username, but I remember that she always posted amazing comments full of links to great resources.

The fact that she was literally begging them, prostrating herself and apologizing to GenCyn users was just hard to watch.

[–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

One of the hardest things for me about being a GC radfem is the ostracism and the isolation. In my heart I have wished many times I had the naiveté that allows so many to have a wider community. At least I'm real.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am thankfully blessed with people in my life who either don't care about this topic or agree with me, so I have never had that particular problem.

My biggest issue with being GC is the fact that I feel like I am taking crazy pills. But having people around me who keep me grounded helps a lot.

I understand how someone could prefer pretending that all the stuff you see are just not there. But I don't think you can if you want to keep your sanity. In the long run, I think that keeping up that fa¢ade is much more detrimental than being alone. And believe me, I have tried to live this like that, at least in the beginning. I just couldn't. The Stepford Smiler trope has always been incredibly creepy to me, and no matter how much I tried to just ignore everything, I just couldn't unsee it.

But again, this comes from someone who doesn't have the problem of feeling isolated and probably constantly attacked to begin with. Who knows how I would react if everyone in my life kept telling me I am a disgusting piece of shit, that I am wrong, that I deserve the worst things possible. I don't have the presumption to consider myself stronger than that poster, I just found it incredibly sad that such a smart and resourceful woman felt the need to beg for help a bunch of assholes who would happily torch her for wrong thinking.

[–]lairacunda 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Stepford Smiler trope I'm stealing that!

She's got some version of Stockholm Syndrome. She probably couldn't stand knowing what she knows.

[–]endoftheworld 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I go back and forth on how much sympathy I have for trans-identified people and how willing I am to be respectful of their beliefs, since I know a lot of them (especially women) are in it to cope with something or another. I always think the ideology itself is unscientific, regressive, and harmful, though.

[–]its1342 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Big fat nope!! I used to give people benefit of the doubt, “maybe transmen truly are just running from being a woman, maybe transwomen really do think they're women”. Then I realized almost anyone is capable of acting normal in public. Just about every single trans person I’ve met has had some heavy mental health issues under the surface, but you’d only know it after getting to know them.

Warning, extra long personal life-scarring story ahead:

I worked with a TIM about 9 years ago (back when I was naive and supported the bathroom bills). Some random days he would come in dressed completely goth with chains, spikes, black lips, the whole 9- but otherwise he was pretty laid back, funny, and relatively normal. One day he came in extra excited because our work was going to allow him to start using the women’s room and it happened to be the same day he got some kind of fake boobs to wear? I thought it was weird but he was happy so I was supportive, so to “celebrate” we agreed to take an early lunch together.

He must’ve felt comfortable since I was supportive of him, and took that as an invitation to go into waaayy too much detail about his personal issues. He talked about having multiple personalities (why he would randomly show up goth), one of the personalities wasn’t actually a personality but a being from another planet that would communicate with him in a language only he understood. He told me he would tell them all about “earth things”, work, and me and wanted me to “talk to him through him”.

Here’s this chill guy I worked next to and ate lunch with for 6 months and had no idea he’d turn out to be absolutely mental. We had a table in a restaurant so I couldn’t dip and honestly I was nervous about pissing him off. Worst lunch of my life. I wound up quitting a month later for unrelated reason but my god.

Every trans person I’ve met since then, has shown signs of being “off” and as soon as that happens I don’t stick around to find out why. Somehow, god knows why, that wasn’t the thing to peak me. I was still open to being “respectful” and playing along for those 9 years until I finally found GC earlier this year and make the connection to sex-based rights and children’s safety being at risk. It’s insane how much information you don’t even realize you’re missing when it comes to “back burner” topics. It’s also scary how many other people just aren’t aware of the weight it carries either.

[–]Anna_Nym 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have seen people online who decided they don't like GC spaces or GC feminism. But they didn't return to trans communities or trans activism or a re-embrace of gender ideology.

[–]Killer_Danish 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2020/05/17/terf-the-female-obsessed-cult-that-took-me-to-the-pub-and-also-fed-me-dinner/

Pink News is run by TRAs, so this so-called ex-GC lesbian is probably a complete fabrication.

[–]lairacunda 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, she's real, real nuts. I feel sorry for her. https://medium.com/@amydyess83/prodigal-butch-7f0d2e00f693

[–]Killer_Danish 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Surprised she's not already on her way to becoming a transman...

As far as I can tell, Amy was always a TRA and never GC... but that doesn't make for good trans-cult propaganda. Like so many abusive men, she turns it around and claims that Gender Critical holds all this power (we don't — GC is de-platformed by leftist media at almost every turn) and claims we're in a "cult" of WOMANHOOD, lol...

Reminds me of the women who go Redpill so that they can shake-down incel men online.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes, that's the one I was talking about in my comment.

I do believe she is real, though, not a TRA fabrication. I also think she has huge mental issues.

[–]Killer_Danish 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, she must be off her rocker because I've NEVER seen or heard from the "international network of powerful lesbians" and neither has anybody else on this planet for that matter...

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

She is absolutely out of her mind. And not in a "progressive libfem" way either. I think she genuinely has something wrong going on in her head. Persecution complexes to begin with.

[–]Bogos 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Redeemed in their ideology...

I think the misguided attempt at subverting gender roles, which is what many trans and sympathetic people think the movement is doing.

Meanwhile the internet trolls and whoever else with the $$$$ are rapidly eroding biological women’s safe spaces, rights, and representation. Then it’s not about the difference between sex and “gender” for one person but about complete ablation of biology and socioeconomic realities for everyone. Hmm, sounds like a right wing co-opt to me...

[–]msteacherlady 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't know where one would put the pin on the timline of when this all started, but the current hot garbage is so current in fact, I don't think many have had time to recover from the whiplash that got them into GC in the first place. But I do have some predictions for myself because I'm really just here for the GC. I appreciate rad fem, and am learning a whole lot about it suddenly, but it might be too austere for me to identify with.

As a teacher, I have a few concerns. Sports, locker rooms and bathrooms, union representation if I slip up in my speech, teaching biology correctly and concisely, and being forced at work to out myself as a cisgender woman when we play the pronoun game. If progress is made on these issues, I will most likely fade away in my interest rather than look for new fights to pick. But I don't see my mind changing as far as my values go.

[–]Killer_Danish 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've volunteered in schools and sat in on Gay-Straight Alliance meetings, and the most disturbing thing I saw was the teacher not raising any concern when a 14-year-old expressed a "life-or-death need" for a breast-binder (something her parents refused to get her) and revealed that she "had a friend online" wanting to buy her one in secret.

My brain went: "GROOMING ALERT! GROOMING ALERT!" But nothing was said by the teacher and I kept hush for fear that any objections would out me as a T**F. Why do women have to choose between social/economic self-preservation and the physical well-being of girl children?! It's maddening!!!

[–]msteacherlady 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a teacher I wouldn't comment either, but alert counseling, admin and parents. I would encourage you as a volunteer to talk to teachers, coaches, or any adult in charge when stuff like this comes up anyway. Some may not realize what's going on these days. Some may have also received inclusivity training and are just operating on a policy of ignoring gender stuff when the BIG problem here is online safety.

I've got a few wokester colleagues, and I think even they would be skeeved out by online "friends" being involved in this child's transition. I'm really hoping this teacher you observed did something.

[–]Chewedanddigested 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There were times when the GC subreddit or people who identified as gender critical put me off. That was mostly because they could be mocking or cruel. Though I suppose that's to be expected in a safe space that is the only area available to vent frustrations.

I was there mainly because I disagreed that gender identity was different than internalized gender stereotypes and wasn't inherent. I believed that the idea of being gender dysphoric simply reaffirmed the boxes of gender that feminists have been fighting against for decades. I also hadn't seen some of the extreme examples that were frequently brought up - not being allowed to say "woman" or acknowledge biological sex in any capacity. Those things seemed like extreme strawmen that must have been misinterpreted, exaggerated, or made up entirely.

I waffled for an extremely long time and could see how the liberal left got to the conclusions they did (accepting marginalized people is important!) but thought that if they were forced to think critically about their positions and understand the nuance and the logical end of their arguments, they'd understand. They'd find space to hold sex dysphoric people without becoming gender essentialists and cannibalizing women's spaces. Nope. And it just kept getting worse. Now people on facebook are saying sex isn't real at all, people on reddit are saying that people born male and living as a women were actually born female, they were just assigned incorrectly, in CMV that genital preferences aren't transphobic just so long as you try to unlearn them (as though conversion therapy has ever worked...).

I tried really hard to not peak and for a time, it was stalled, or very slow going. But even with all my goodwill toward mainstream liberal feminism, it was unavoidable. In fact, I've abandoned liberalism in all fronts for radical progressivism and I don't think there's any going back.