loveSloane comments on Calls for trans elimination

submitted 1 year ago by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun - 1 year ago* (6 children)

Until they develop surgery to change your hands, neck, shoulders, thighs, knees etc there will always be obvious tells.

I was actually to look into one of these at a clinic in Ukraine but then, well, stuff happened. If that's all it takes I will just wait until that's more mainstream.

They were shocked because they thought they passed

Yeah this just makes me want to sh ugh, I need to not go outside for a while

Long term hormones is bound to have repercussions when your body was never meant to have them.

My mind is meant to have them. You believe prescriptively that the only hormone balance someone can be functional on is what's normal or natural. I say that we should let people decide for themselves and pick what's easiest on them, even if there are side effects. Taking estradiol could be lethal for all I care, a few years of relative mental peace is worth it.

I don’t care about it when it’s rooted in something they’d never be able to understand.

What would it take for someone like me to understand? Because I'll do that, alright? Idk

How can you tell me that you are what I am?

It's not logical, it's just something I know in the core of who I am. If you woke up in a different body you'd still be you and you might feel strongly disassociated from that body. That's how it is for us. I'm trapped in a body I hate and the only thing that's ever actually helped, is something that GCers want to take away.

It’s not enough for you to have surgery or hormones etc, the whole world has to go along with it.

That's because hormones and surgery aren't good enough on their own and won't change legal documents. Maybe if everyone passed in every context then all trans people could assimilate into society and be stealth.

Seriously how can a male person tell a female person “I’m a woman”

I'm not necessarily the same as you, we're different people with different sets of experiences. I'm not saying our experiences or bodies are identical but that my sense of self is such that the only way I'm at all comfortable living is if I can be mistaken as female sometimes.

Saying a male is a boy or man and a female is girl or woman is not limiting to them to anything but reality.

You offer us literally no recourse to our pain, then. Like, I'm saying that I cannot, will not live accepting that reality, and your response is to keep trying to get us to do so? Ik transactivists can be awful, but treating all of us based on our sex because you think reality is all that matters is just inhumane.

Your body would have been like most men’s if you hadn’t transitioned.

And I wouldn't have been alive.

not indicative of a mentally healthy person.

Wow thanks this changes my whole worldview and definitely makes me want to detransition...no like actually what is calling mentally ill supposed to actually do? It won't change my situation, it will just open me up to people trying to remove my autonomy and "cure" me.

What you described is actually not mental illness

How do you know that dysphoria is a mental illness and not just a natural reaction to having a brain that rejects one's sexed body? And I'm not saying that there r man brains or woman brains, but that trans people's brains may just be wired differently than non-trans people. What would be sufficient in order for us to have a place in society that isn't just only being seen as our sex?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 1 year ago (5 children)

Okay…

You’re gonna be waiting forever. They’d have to pretty much rearrange you’re entire skeleton to not have any give always that you’re male. Until they can do a full body/brain transplant you’re going to be male.

Even if you don’t pass, you could go outside because most people aren’t think in about you or worried about you. We truly don’t care. Granted some people may- but that’s true for females and poc and lgb etc, most people don’t care when they see us… some do.

No part of your body is meant to have the hormone levels you have. You want them and think you need them because of dysphoria. Dysphoria doesn’t change what your body needs and how it’s supposed to function. If your dysphoria were being treated more effectively you’d understand this.

The only way you’d understand womanhood/being a female is by being a female. There’s nothing you can do.

Waking up in a different body is not the same as waking up in the body you’ve always had and wishing you woke up with a different body

You can say you know it in your core- you don’t. You have never existed in a female body to know what that is like. Even today any experience you may have is that of a male who (as you say) is perceived as female. It’s still a male perspective.

Again- that’s narcissism. Getting to do what you want to your body and with your life and leaving everyone else out of it is not enough. The whole world has to bend for you? And you think that’s reasonable?

You want to be stealth, meaning mislead and lie to people for the rest of your life? So… you want to be dishonest with every relationship or friendship you have and yet I assume would want those people to love you for you and be able to trust you as you actively continue to withhold information that could matter deeply to them so you can have the life you want? And that’s morally sound to you? And it wouldn’t bother you that you’d never know if they’d accept you for all of you?

I know we are different people. We are also different sexes. And the term you are using, the term you’re tying to claim is some sort of identity, is the only word in the world that is meant solely to distinguish between me and you and acknowledge the differences between us. You seek to erase that by altering the word to suit you. I get you feel how you do about your body- but why take from women in order to alleviate your distress? Even if it’s just the language meant to describe and define women, why take that from them?

It’s not me who offers no recourse for your pain, it’s life. It’s biology. It’s fact. It’s your own body. Once again, Idgaf if you accept reality or not. Reality exists regardless of your acceptance. What I want is to not have my spaces or rights or language corrupted for your benefit.

If there were alternative treatments you very well could still be alive without transition. We won’t ever know. But my point was just that bodies are not unhealthy just because the mind rejects them. It wasn’t about your feelings, I was responding to discussing whether or not your body was objectively healthy or not pre transition and it was.

Calling someone mentally ill is meant to try to explain that the issue is with the brain not the body. It was stated because this whole time I’ve been saying that you can’t fix the mental by altering the physical. Even now with you having transitioned you’re talking about putting your brain in a computer, hiding because a fucking stranger may notice that youre male, wanting to kill yourself rather than live i. Your body as it would naturally look- that’s mental illness. Stating it doesn’t take the mental illness away, but it still needs to be acknowledged that this is severe mental illness on display.

The people who try to “cure” you may actually be able to. Maybe not you specifically, but many dysphoric people. Which is why in my first comment I said if a therapist/psychologist has attempted other forms of treatment and the patient is no better then I would understand then recommending transition as a last resort. Something tells me you’d be one of those patients anyway.

And many patients have to have their autonomy “removed” because they aren’t of sound mind. I’m not saying you’re one of those people, to be clear, but you act as if it’s never okay for doctors or whomever to intervene and make choices for their patients but it happens all the time when necessary. If you were suicidal you’d be put on watch and possibly medicated and hospitalized- you don’t want that, you want to die. Is the doctor wrong for keeping you alive against your will?

Trying other forms of treatment before resorting to the most drastic treatment possible is reasonable. It just doesn’t automatically give any dysphoric person what they want and that is what seems to be the problem. If you’re willing to literally surgically alter every part of your skeleton to appear female, what is the issue in waiting until you’ve exhausted all other alternatives to do something that extreme?

I know it’s a mental illness because it’s not normal for a brain to reject one’s sexed body lol

Trans people’s (or rather dysphoric people’s) brains are wired differently. As are bipolar people and schizophrenic people and pretty much any one else with a mental disorder/illness. You not what’s not wired differently? Their bodies. They still have a sex just like the bipolar person or schizophrenic person. So why should we treat this one disorder by indulging their symptoms when we wouldn’t do that for anyone else?

You’re always going to be seen as your sex by society. Maybe some will pretend that’s not the case, but there will always be a need or reason for distinguishing between the sex you wish you were and the sex you are. So even if we all pretended we thought TW were women, there’d still be people putting qualifiers and limits on that. And there’d still be discussions about whether this type of woman should be eligible for this scholarship or grant, if this type of woman should job that was designated for a woman, this sport meant to provide equality for females, or even just wanting to date or be friends with you. Sex matters and becomes relevant in the day to day for a multitude of reasons. Most people aren’t willing to pretend it doesn’t so a small portion of the population can feel validated in their sense of self. And they shouldn’t have to.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun - 1 year ago* (4 children)

Until they can do a full body/brain transplant you’re going to be male.

This is actually what I want and hope for!

you could go outside because most people aren’t think in about you

But if they think of me in that way then it ruins my whole day lol, I'm just saying my participation in public is totally dependent on being able to pass. If I start not passing, then I won't choose to keep participating in public. I get my groceries and medication delivered, I take a vitamin D supplement, etc.

If your dysphoria were being treated more effectively you’d understand this.

This is the treatment for it. There's no "other way" right now that reliably cures dysphoria, and I won't accept a "treatment" that fundamentally changes my gender identity bc that's just conversion. It wouldn't be me.

There’s nothing you can do.

Well fuck I guess that's it then?

Waking up in a different body is not the same as waking up in the body you’ve always had and wishing you woke up with a different body

If it were you, how would you know any different? Both people would feel wrong about the body they're now in, why wouldn't you tell the person who got swapped to accept reality or whatever? You say there's a difference but that's only because you know a swap happened, for the person living it the circumstances of how it happened don't matter. It's just sanism, discarding people's mental states as disordered because they don't match your worldview of the ways it's okay for people to think or be.

You can say you know it in your core- you don’t.

I do, it's still my body, I'm the one who decides if it's wrong for me or not.

You want to be stealth, meaning mislead and lie to people for the rest of your life? So… you want to be dishonest with every relationship or friendship you have and yet I assume would want those people to love you for you and be able to trust you as you actively continue to withhold information that could matter deeply to them so you can have the life you want? And that’s morally sound to you? And it wouldn’t bother you that you’d never know if they’d accept you for all of you?

If the alternative is people knowing an awful, terrible truth about me then yeah I'd rather just lie. I have spaces where I'm open about being trans, mostly just to other trans people. It does bother me irl, but I do not think that I am worthy of anyone's love, so I just keep pretending that I am. Tbh I don't really have plans to date someone who isn't trans again, I am only going to date trans people in the future. I don't like being dishonest but I'm an order of magnitude more ashamed of being amab than I am of being stealth.

you’d never know if they’d accept you for all of you?

I kinda assume that no one offline would ever accept me for all of me. That's why I don't let anyone offline see or know all of me.

Even if it’s just the language meant to describe and define women, why take that from them?

How do you own a word, how is there any giving or taking? When people say women in general they still think of you, not me. If I use a different word for myself then I just feel like a freak or "other". I want to be normal, to not have to pretend, to just belong without being some weird outsider. If everyone in my life calls me a woman and I don't tell anyone then what am I taking? You should still be able to describe yourself idk, maybe trans women just need to be quieter

It’s not me who offers no recourse for your pain, it’s life. It’s biology. It’s fact.

Then I'll change life, I'll change biology, I'll change fact, I won't just accept this being the way things are? It's horrible.

If there were alternative treatments you very well could still be alive without transition

Alternative treatments I would never have consented to.

Calling someone mentally ill is meant to try to explain that the issue is with the brain

The issue is with the connection between brain and body. If I were female or didn't have a body my quality of life would be much higher. I don't understand how you can simply presume that the mind, that someone's sense of self, must be wrong and must be changed. When the mental issue is due to something physical then physical changes could alleviate it.

The people who try to “cure” you may actually be able to. Maybe not you specifically, but many dysphoric people.

I think that encouraging this on people erases a great deal of culture from the world though. If gender variance is seen as a disease instead of a state of being then everyone will just be "cis" and I find that super depressing and boring?

Is the doctor wrong for keeping you alive against your will?

Yes. Also dysphoria doesn't make someone insane, it doesn't make us not of sound mind. I generally oppose any violation of patient autonomy even if that would include letting someone die.

what is the issue in waiting until you’ve exhausted all other alternatives

All those alternatives do things I would hate and would kill the person that I am today...there's no comfort in trying to make myself be the good Catholic boy my parents wanted, because I wouldn't even be around to experience the peace of not having dysphoria. Someone else living in my body would be, but we'd be so unalike that I don't consider us the same person.

So why should we treat this one disorder by indulging their symptoms when we wouldn’t do that for anyone else?

A lot of other conditions are "indulged" contextually. Have you ever read "the man who mistook his wife for a hat"? I seem to remember stories of patients with a single, odd compulsion that resisted treatment. The best result for them was just to healthily do that compulsion in a way that didn't negatively affect their life. I.e if someone can only be functional by wearing a certain hat every day then it's easier to just let them wear the hat. It's easier to just let people transition. We will do it anyway, there is a huge DIY scene.

Sex matters and becomes relevant in the day to day for a multitude of reasons.

I'll simply avoid as many situations in which it matters as I can. Like the classic one I hear here is sex on IDs, if having the "wrong" marker will get me killed because of the medical treatment I receive in an accident, then yeah I'd rather die than live through the constant embarrassment that was having an M on my license.

Most people aren’t willing to pretend it doesn’t

So you could support the development of transition care so that more people can pass and you won't even have to think about us?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun - 1 year ago* (3 children)

How would a full body transplant even happen? You just switch bodies with a transman? Idk how it would actually happen

You wouldn’t know they think of you thst way because they wouldn’t tell you. I moved recently but when I lived in LA I saw obviously trans people all the time and never said a word or gave indication I noticed. You’d be fine. Nobody cares but you.

Your dysphoria has clearly not been treated. One aspect of it has been alleviated and obviously not enough for you. A cure means you don’t have it anymore. Trans people obviously still struggle with it post transition, even if it’s more manageable. There’s no other way right now because tras call any attempt to find other ways conversion therapy. Other ways could be developed. We don’t do lobotomies anymore, they found ways to actually treat the things they were giving lobotomies for.

One is “now in” a body. The other is in the same body they’ve always been in. The situations aren’t comparable.

It’s literally a mental disorder. I’m astonished you would dispute that after acknowledging your mental health issues before.

If you’re willing to lie to every single person in your life and you think that’s acceptable then you’re just confirming my point. Narcissism.

I don’t own the word woman. The word woman has a clear neutral meaning and it applies to me and not to males. That’s my point. Every single word you typed has a meaning. According to you if it suits me I can just change the meaning of select words you’ve used and make them mean that you agree with everything I said? And you can’t get upset because you don’t own those words? Great. So you agree transition should be a last resort and spaces for females should remain male free. Awesome. Glad we reached a consensus.

I wasn’t talking about you’re body- I was talking about your mind. Your body is male so it’s ridiculous to claim the identity of the body opposite your own. You have no internal frame of reference for it. And gender identity doesn’t magically give you one. You cannot ever know womanhood.

Good luck changing biology lol

How do you change a fact?

Yet again, things are how they are whether you accept that or not.

You wouldn’t have choice to consent, the process would be exhausting those other forms of treatment before a therapist approves of transition. You can resist the treatments- you’d still have to wait so why not try to be mentally healthy first?

The issue is with the connection between brain and body, I agree. Your body is doing what it’s supposed to, your brain is what’s rejecting your body. It’s still a mental health issue. You can wax poetic about it all you want- it’s undeniable mental.

You don’t know what the alternative is to know you’d hate it. You’re making a huge assumption based on nothing concrete because this whole topic of alternative treatments is hypothetical.

No one but you can live in your body. That’s fact. So as I said before, you’d always be you because that’s all you (or any of us) can ever be.

Please list the mental disorders/illness we treat by indulgence and how we indulge them.

The issue with trans people is it’s not just your life. Everyone else has to participate in your treatment and that’s dangerous for your mental health and an unfair burden on others, including complete strangers. If someone wants to remove a limb it only affects them and society would in fact recognize them as what they wanted to be because they actually can become what they wanted to be. That’s not the case for trans people.

It’s not as simple as you think to avoid the situations where sex matters.

I used to bartend- I never, not once, checked the sex on an id. People check dob, names and pictures. I’m sure there are instances when they check sex. But those instances are when it’s relevant so a falsified legal document could actually be what makes you die. If you’re willing to die rather than have accurate identification- how the hell can you argue that’s not mental illness?

I don’t support transition at all, I’m just not pushing to stop because I don’t care what others do to themselves. I don’t think there’s much that can be done that’s not being done now. Male bodies are different from female bodies in structure in thousands of ways. Even when they get to the kids it doesn’t always make passing a guarantee. You can only fuck with nature so much.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 1 year ago (2 children)

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun - 1 year ago (1 child)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun - 1 year ago (0 children)

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