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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

(BTW, I think it bears pointing out that the "trans people who regret going through puberty" are almost exclusively adult males who enjoy full sexual function, and many of whom have fathered children.) But that won't be true for the males who had their balls removed and their penises removed or reconfigured.

There are way more young mtf people, me included, who regret going through puberty, than there are of late transitioners with families.

Even if they've had surgery they could still take testosterone while detransitioning if that is what they want.

Swedish celebrity Alexa Lundberg and the YouTuber Shape Shifter both went through normal male puberty of adolescence before they tried to turn themselves into facsimiles of women, yet now both say they wished they had just accepted that they were gay males from the start rather than chasing an impossible fantasy.

Cool? That sucks for them, it really does, but it has literally no impact on my life or the lives of other trans people. People's personal testimonies of the journey their gender identity has taken cannot be used to make a group judgment to deny us the right to transition.

I highly doubt that the majority of them would have passed up their chance to experience male libido, male sexual arousal and male orgasm in the off-chance it might make them "pass" better now.

I never wanted any of that nor do many of the people I know. And even if I did, it shouldn't stop someone from being able to transition.

But that's the males. Pray tell, how will the young females you are wishing this horrible fate on end up "no worse off than" the males you speak of who now say they regret going through male puberty?

Being trans is not a horrible fate. It is difficult, but if you look around there is a supportive community going through a lot of the same things, and that helps us get through it.

Being detrans isn't a horrible fate either, though it seems mostly like being "ex-gay" to me for some, a constant state of denying yourself what you want. I don't think that's healthy imo, but it's not my life to live.

Also, why do you think mature adults like Laverne Cox, Rachel Levine, Grace Lavery, Julia Serrano, Andrea Long Chu, Caitlyn Jenner, Contrapoints, Char Clymer, Jennifer Finney Boylan, Marci Bowers, TS Madison, etc are good comparators for today's distressed tween and teenage girls? Why are they the models on which to base standards of medical care for young girls with sex and gender distress?

Honestly the only people from this list who a young person probably knows might be Laverne Cox and contra. Add on Hunter Schafer. Do I have to like famous trans people to be trans? No lol, we could use more young trans role models like Hunter, but it takes time.

Why should what full-grown males say about their own time as youths way back when be the deciding factor in determining which medical treatments are given to today's and tomorrow's tween and teenage girls, some as young as 8?

Trans people are entitled to medical treatments to help us transition if we want them. It isn't about what anyone else wants.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Being trans is not a horrible fate.

But I never said "being trans" (whatever that means) is a horrible fate. I said female persons whose health has been permanently damaged by regular administration of exogenous testosterone/androgens for the purpose of masculinizing them during their tweens, teens and 20s have faced, and do face, a horrible fate.

Female persons doped on T over the course of many years for the purpose of masculinization routinely experience physical problems like vaginal atrophy, cystitis, extreme pelvic pain, including upon/after orgasm, and a host of other serious gynecological issues leading to major surgeries like hysterectomy and oophorectomy that will put them at risk for other health problems like vaginal and pelvic organ prolapse and early-onset dementia. As adults, female persons on long-term exogenous T for masculinization have double the risk of heart attacks and CV disease as ordinary male adults do.

The medical interventions you recommend - indeed insist upon - for young female persons will cause them to go from having half the risk of heart attack and CV diseases as males to having twice the risk of males. Moreover, whereas females who develop CV disease usually begin to develop it 7-10 years later than males, women heavily dosed with testosterone in their formative years appear to develop CV disease earlier than males. If the women doped on androgens during their formative and athletic years by the East German government are any indication, taking over many years during adolescence and adulthood significantly reduces female life spans.

The core question I asked you earlier that you have refused to answer is: Why are adult trans activists like you so intent on issuing diktats saying other people's minor children should be given powerful prescription drugs and artificial hormones that will impede their natural development and impair their sexual function?

Why do you and other males think you have sufficient insight and expertise on the health of female children, adolescents and adults to decide and insist that during their tweens and teens, large numbers of girls should be put on exogenous Big Pharma testosterone?

Do you make posts dictating what medical treatments other groups of youngsters - particularly girls - should get? Or just girls who are distressed about gender and sex issues - girls who if allowed to develop naturally and with proper mental health support might grow up to be strong "GNC" women unwilling to take shit from males - no matter how the males say they identify?

Hmm, what's up with that?

I'll wait.

Honestly the only people from this list who a young person probably knows might be Laverne Cox and contra. Add on Hunter Schafer. Do I have to like famous trans people to be trans? No lol, we could use more young trans role models like Hunter, but it takes time.

Huh? I never suggested the persons I named were models for the tween and teenage girls and young women who want to "transition" today. I mentioned nothing about role models. I don't know how you could have come to such an odd conclusion.

I said that the statements made by male persons like the ones I named are what led to the notion that it would be a good idea to stop the natural development of children for the purpose of "early medical transition" in the first place. When adult males like the ones I named - and the additional ones you yourself have now mentioned - look back on their own teenage years, they frequently say that they wish they hadn't developed male secondary sex characteristics during their own puberties of adolescence because having obviously male sex characteristics make it harder for them to "pass" as women. And it's because of what such adult males say about their own lives in retrospect - and out of their own mirror-gazing, appearance-obsessed, very narrow self-interests - that large numbers of young children they have never met, never will meet, have nothing to do with and know jack shit about, are being subjected to radical experimental medical interventions to stop them from going through puberty.

I didn't mention the adult males I named because they are "famous trans people" who might have direct influence on youngsters because they are work in entertainment like Cox does, make YT videos like CP does, or they work as fashion models like Hunter Shafer does. I mentioned the individuals I did because the ideas that inform and govern "pediatric gender medicine" are based entirely on the experience of such males, and only on their experience as males. Moreover, the individuals I named all have enormous influence on the people who make health care policy and decide the standards of care for children and adolescents experiencing distress over sex and gender issues. All of the people I mentioned have the ears of the people high up in medicine, psychotherapy, politics, government, "LGBTQ" lobbying, publishing and the mainstream media, social media, the insurance industry, etc who make policy and decide what treatments are appropriate for children.

In fact, some of the people I mentioned - Rachel Levine, Marci Bowers - actually set the standards of medical treatment and determine health policy themselves. In case you were unaware of this, Rachel Levine is the Biden administration official personally in charge of women's and children's medical treatment and health care policy in the USA. Marci Bowers is president-elect of WPATH, and a longtime member of the groups that control WPATH at the highest levels, including the board of directors. Over the years, Bowers has also been an outspoken, leading advocate of subjecting male children to surgical castration and penile reconfiguration whilst they are still minors. And not just when they are still minors, but when they are minors still living under their parents' roofs and under their parents' thumbs. (Bowers says a main reason for this is so that the mothers can force recently-castrated youths to dilate after surgery when they don't want to.) Until recently, Bowers was also one of the biggest proponents of "pubertal blockade" of male children at Tanner Stage 2.

All the leading lights and influential figures in the gender identity industry like Norman Spack, Jack Turban and Diane Ehrenshraft; orgs like WPATH, APA and Mermaids; clinicians, psychotherapists policy makers, insurers, parents and everyone else captured by today's gender identity ideology say it's a good idea to follow the advice of the kinds of adult males I have mentioned in determining how best to treat young boys and girls who are distressed over sex and gender issue. All of them and the other powers-that-be in "pediatric gender medicine" and "youth gender care" say it's essential to make sure that gender confused kids are subjected to radical medical interventions as early in childhood as possible. Meaning before the first physical signs of puberty of adolescence become obvious - which according to the protocols now in use in the US, means putting female children on "puberty blockers" AND exogenous testosterone as early as 8, and putting males on "blockers" at 10-11 and on exogenous estrogen by 12. (Jazz Jennings went on "blockers" at 11, and exogenous estrogen at 11 years, 5 months.)

These experimental radical medical interventions are being done on young children on the say so and at the urging of adult males like the ones I named - and like the younger adult ones you yourself mentioned. All of whom had the privilege of growing up without their brains, bones and endocrine systems being irreversibly altered and without developing the kinds of iatrogenic physical and mental health problems that Jazz Jennings now has. All of whom also have had the chance to develop normal male reproductive capacity and to experience the enormous and exquisite pleasures that come from having mature male sexual function, male libido, male sexual pleasure, and male orgasms.

Trans people are entitled to medical treatments to help us transition if we want them. It isn't about what anyone else wants.

If that's the case, why are you and other adults like you so insistent on dictating the medical interventions done on minors? Minors who are other people's children. Minors who are mostly children of the sex you seem to know very little about, and you have no experience of?

If that's the case, why are you on social media making statements like this one:

we should be giving teens cross-sex hormones instead, the same way we would for adults. They can desist or detransition later.

Again, why is it so important to you and other adults like you to insure that other people's minor children get robbed of the chance to grow up physically healthy with fully developed brains and bodies, and with the capacity to enjoy full sexual function?

Why are you and other adults like you so intent on making sure that cross-sex hormones are used to alter the bodies and mess with the minds of tween and teenage girls in particular?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I said female persons whose health has been permanently damaged by regular administration of exogenous testosterone/androgens for the purpose of masculinizing them during their tweens, teens and 20s have faced, and do face, a horrible fate.

You realize there are many precautions that can be taken that can help transmasc people with this? A lot of trans guys I know take topical estradiol to prevent vaginal atrophy, it's unfortunate but helps, and have also had hysterectomies to head off potential issues there as well.

pelvic organ prolapse and early-onset dementia. As adults, female persons on long-term exogenous T for masculinization have double the risk of heart attacks and CV disease as ordinary male adults do.

I don't think any of this is worth not transitioning, personally. It's up to them and they should be aware, but we will figure out ways to deal with these issues. There are other risky actions people take that increase their CV risk, like eating badly, but we don't stop people from eating how they want, obviously.

Why are adult trans activists like you so intent on issuing diktats saying other people's minor children should be given powerful prescription drugs and artificial hormones that will impede their natural development and impair their sexual function?

Because if they're trans it's their right to take them, it's that simple. And estradiol for trans women is bioidentical now in the vast majority of cases. It's exogenously introduced, but it's the exact same hormone as is produced naturally.

large numbers of young children they have never met, never will meet, have nothing to do with and know jack shit about, are being subjected to radical experimental medical interventions to stop them from going through puberty.

If even one kid is like me and hates her body less because she was able to transition younger and not have horrible parents then it will have been worth it.

All of the people I mentioned have the ears of the people high up in medicine, psychotherapy, politics, government, "LGBTQ" lobbying, publishing and the mainstream media, social media, the insurance industry, etc who make policy and decide what treatments are appropriate for children.

Trans people finally having a say for ourselves and helping trans kids, and that's somehow problematic to you. Would you rather trans people have no voice and cis people decide for us? No lol

Over the years, Bowers has also been an outspoken, leading advocate of subjecting male children to surgical castration and penile reconfiguration whilst they are still minors.

Okay? I can see how that's logical, it would be much easier to recover from SRS with parental support.

All of whom also have had the chance to develop normal male reproductive capacity and to experience the enormous and exquisite pleasures that come from having mature male sexual function, male libido, male sexual pleasure, and male orgasms.

Okay what actually is this? Why write this? I hated anything sexual before I transitioned and I still have intimacy issues because I'm so uncomfortable with my body. There is no "exquisite" pleasure in being male nor does that at all motivate me to have others have to suffer the way I did/do. I would have done anything to avoid that grossness.

gender identity ideology say it's a good idea to follow the advice of the kinds of adult males I have mentioned in determining how best to treat young boys and girls who are distressed over sex and gender issue.

Literally the only advice you have to follow is to treat ppl with dysphoria and give them transition care.

Again, why is it so important to you and other adults like you to insure that other people's minor children get robbed of the chance to grow up physically healthy with fully developed brains and bodies, and with the capacity to enjoy full sexual function?

People do not necessarily need or desire "full sexual function". I didn't. Why are you so intent on making trans kids suffer so that people can grow up wanting sex? Ofc hormones alter people's bodies and minds but that is not a negative thing, it's someone's choice.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I’m concerned about how often you take these points about other people and deny them because it’s not applicable to you.

Like, your sex hang ups have nothing to do with the fact that children given puberty blockers like jazz Jennings will become adults who have extreme sexual dysfunctions.

You don’t care about the side effects of testosterone on girls so we should all dismiss them as acceptable.

Can you remove your own desires from a discussion about other people, and remember that other people can and will want things you are fine without?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I'm not the one who's trying to restrict what people can do. If people want something else for themselves that's fine. Trans kids deserve a choice, not to be forced to go through natal puberty. That choice is independent of any potential side effects.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Is there a reason you’re not answering this question? You went off on an absolute tangent without any actual response.

Let me ask you again, are you capable of separating your emotions and wants from other children?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Of course I am. What does that have to do with trans people's agency? As far as I'm concerned transition is a human right.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So yes or no, sexual dysfunction for others in the future matters even though you are sex repulsed?

Osteoporosis is acceptable to you so it is acceptable to everyone who uses hormone treatments?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I couldn't tell you whether it matters. You'd need to ask individual people. I've decided it's acceptable for me, if they decide it is for them too then they should be able to take hormones too.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Then why do you make these grand sweeping statements on behalf of other people that you cannot possibly know are true? Why do you dismiss things like future sexual function based solely on your personal repulsion?

You stated earlier that all children should be given hormones if requested despite surely knowing a child cannot comprehend what it means to give up their adult sexual functions, or to live with osteopenia.