GC: What is wrong with trans people working in sexual violence prevention?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

What is wrong with trans people working in sexual violence prevention?

Nothing. What is wrong is if trans people want to work in sexual violence prevention in a way that hinders the goal of sexual violence prevention. Similar to firefighter who causes more fires than they extinguish that would be a liability, not an asset. So I’m not against trans people working in sexual violence prevention with victims who are comfortable with them. I am however against trans people working in sexual violence prevention with victims who are uncomfortable with them (due to biological sex or whatever) thus alienating traumatized victims from getting help. Being forced to interact with people of the same biological sex the victim was victimized by is a common enough trigger that it should be something traumatized victims should be allowed to opt out off. We don’t want situations where traumatized victims back out from getting help because they are scared of the one supposed to give them the treatment and not allowed to receive treatment from anyone else.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Being forced to interact with people of the same biological sex the victim was victimized by is a common enough trigger that it should be something traumatized victims should be allowed to opt out off.

What about cis women who were raped by other cis women? Or men raped by other cis men? Should they be forced to interact with other members of their birth sex?

[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What about cis women who were raped by other cis women?

What are you talking about, biological females, people with a specific gender identity, or the intersection of biological females with a specific gender identity? As gender identities are invisible people with a specific gender identity who were raped by other people with that specific gender identity would most the time not know that their rapist had that specific gender identity and the gender identity wouldn't be a trigger except for the rare cases that the rapist would have informed the victim about their gender identity.

If you are merely talking biological females who were raped by other biological females, they should be not forced to interact with biological females while getting the treatment either as the healing of the victim should be prioritized. Had I worked at such a place I wouldn’t want to force my treatment upon someone who would be re-traumatized by interacting with me, that would against the goal of what I would be working for.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Fair enough.

By "cis women" I meant people who were born female and still consider themselves women/girls and don't take T to appear masculine. By "cis men" I meant people who were born male and still consider themselves men/boys, call themselves men, say they are men, etc. and don't take E to appear more feminine. Since the term "women" refers refers to both cis and trans women and the term "men" refers refers to both cis and trans men I decided to be more specific.

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

By "cis women" I meant people who were born female and still consider themselves women/girls and don't take T to appear masculine.

Here you are making the error of conflating letters with meaning again. It’s impossible for you to know if someone considers themselves “woman” in your language without first comparing your meaning of the letters “woman” with their meaning of the letters “woman” and seeing these two meanings align. Many of those you wrongly assign with your gender identity are just people who are aware of being AFAB in your language which people on r/ftm are also aware of. As you claim to be against misgendering I would assume you are aware of the incongruity/pain you cause these biological females by assigning them a gender identity they don't have. According to trans activists not even evil people deserve being misgendered, if you agree with that sentiment disagreeing with the meaning attached to letters shouldn’t be enough cause to go ahead and misgender someone with a false gender identity.

don't take T to appear masculine

Elliot Page called themselves a woman before transitioning, was Elliot Page a “cis woman” to you before going on T? If they were a “cis woman” just like how you identify as, why would a “cis woman” choose to transition? And if they were not a “cis woman”, evidently neither the lack of taking testosterone (as Elliot Page wasn’t always taking T) nor calling yourself the letters “woman” is enough to make anyone a “cis woman” in your language.

Since the term "women" refers refers to both cis and trans women

In your language the letters “woman” would only refer to people who share your gender identity. You misgendering people as sharing your gender identity when they don’t doesn’t change that many of the biological females you call “women” actually aren’t “women” in your language, they are just being misgendered as such by you.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Many of those you wrongly assign with your gender identity are just people who are aware of being AFAB in your language which people on r/ftm are also aware of. As you claim to be against misgendering I would assume you are aware of the incongruity/pain you cause these biological females by assigning them a gender identity they don't have. 

If someone doesn't have a gender identity than they are agender which is part of non-binary.

Elliot Page called themselves a woman before transitioning, was Elliot Page a “cis woman” to you before going on T? If they were a “cis woman” just like how you identify as, why would a “cis woman” choose to transition?

He was a man, he just wasn't out yet.

In your language the letters “woman” would only refer to people who share your gender identity. You misgendering people as sharing your gender identity when they don’t doesn’t change that many of the biological females you call “women” actually aren’t “women” in your language, they are just being misgendered as such by you.

I don't call every AFAB person "woman." I only call them women if they consider themselves women. If they consider themselves something other than woman I dont use that term for them. I sometimes use the term "women" for people who present as female, for instance when I say women experience sexual harassment. A passing trans man will not experience sexual harassment, but a trans man who has not physically transitioned may experience the same sexism women do.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If someone doesn't have a gender identity than they are agender which is part of non-binary.

To you, yes, a great many would probably meet your definition of agender/nonbinary.

I only call them women if they consider themselves women.

Which is still misgendering if you conflate letters with meanings, which is what you have done in the past.

If they consider themselves something other than woman I dont use that term for them.

Translated to your language that would someone who doesn’t consider themselves having your gender identity. To you, a woman is specific gender identity, so only those who think of themselves as having that gender identity can be fairly portrayed as having this gender identity, letters used doesn’t matter. It’s the same way a person speaking Polish can say they brush their teeth with “pasta” and it would still erroneous to portray them as brushing their teeth with pasta instead of toothpaste as “pasta” is the Polish word for toothpaste. I don’t want you give you a hard time here, but so we know if we are on the same page, do you agree that letters and meanings are two different things?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To you, yes, a great many would probably meet your definition of agender/nonbinary.

Most people are cis and binary, but yes many people are non-binary.

Which is still misgendering if you conflate letters with meanings, which is what you have done in the past.

Letters form words and words have mean meanings.

Translated to your language that would someone who doesn’t consider themselves having your gender identity. To you, a woman is specific gender identity, so only those who think of themselves as having that gender identity can be fairly portrayed as having this gender identity, letters used doesn’t matter.

That is that the term "woman" refers to. Also just because someone doesn't consider themselves woman doesn't mean they are agender. They could be a man or bigender.

I don’t want you give you a hard time here, but so we know if we are on the same page, do you agree that letters and meanings are two different things?

I said above letters form words and words have mean meanings but sometimes one string of letters can have multiple meanings.

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Letters form words and words have mean meanings.

Letters other people speak refer to the meaning the speaker refers to, not the meaning you want the letters to have as you are not the speaker, thus not the one referring to something.

That is that the term "woman" refers to.

That’s the term you refer to when you speak the letters but you are not all people. A homonym is term that is spelled and/or pronounced as another term but differs in meaning. Therefor those letters don’t form one single term, it would form as many homonym terms as the different meanings people refer to when speaking those letters, which would be at least one term for you and a completely other term for me. When it’s you speaking the letters you can refer to gender identity but it’s morally wrong to pretend all other people speaking the letters would be referring to the same term as you when you know for a fact they don’t, that’s putting words into the mouths of others, aka lying.

So if I say someone is a “woman”, how should that be interpreted by you without using the letters “woman”?