QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (30 children)

Detransition Is vanishingly rare and noting irreversible is dibd before adolescence and I have never seen gc cite any statistics on adolescent desistance

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (29 children)

Suicide is vanishingly rare, so how can it be used to warrant encouraging transition, but detransition can't be used to warrant encouraging desistance?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

Suicide attempts absolutely aren’t vanishingly rare.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

They are nowhere near the detransition rates, which are between 2-8%. Suicide rates are well-under 1%.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

Suicide attempt rates for trans people who can’t access care have been measured at over 40 percent.

And so you have a source in 8 percent detransition? Because I’ve never seen anything over one percent.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Suicide attempt rates for trans people who can’t access care have been measured at over 40 percent.

Evidence please. And by evidence I mean reports from impartial health authorities and researchers based on substantiated medical records, police reports, ER visits, etc. Not self-reports made by supposedly trans people responding to anonymous online surveys done by campaign groups that put out propaganda like the Williams Institute, HRC, Trevor Project, Mermaids.

And not the anonymous National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) from 2014 that the much-contested 41% figure originally came from.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Self report surveys are accepted science. You are being unreasonable to dismiss them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nah, mate, self reports in anonymous online surveys pitched to certain groups for the purposes of eliciting certain answers to get particular results are not reliable "accepted science." Especially when they consist of yes/no questions, and no definitions are given that make clear distinctions between such different things as thoughts of suicide, suicidal ideation, suicidal urges, suicide plans, genuine suicide attempts, feigned suicide attempts and carried-out genuine suicide attempts.

Many people who claim in anonymous surveys that they have made suicide attempts have actually had thoughts of suicide. Or their supposed suicide attempts consisted of indulging in acts of self-harm they knew had no chance of killing them, such as taking a few extra Tylenol or ibuprofen, cutting themselves nowhere near a vein or artery.

Globally, the availability and quality of data on suicide and suicide attempts is poor.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/suicide

In some populations, actual suicides and genuine suicide attempts are under-reported. Amongst other populations, past suicide attempts are likely to be way over-reported. People answering anonymous on-line surveys lie all the time. Just as people lie in face-to-face interviewers and to telephone pollsters.

Moreover, information on actual suicides shows that there's an inverse relationship between talking about/threatening suicide and actually attempting and doing it. People who are the most serious about attempting suicide tend to keep it to themselves rather than sharing their intent with others.

Histrionic people who indulge in catastrophic thinking, are given to exaggeration, who are in denial about basic facts about their own sex and the reality of sex, who believe they are the most oppressed people on the planet, and think everyone is out to get them, are not reliable sources of information about their own life events/histories.

The most reliable source of information about suicide attempts is hospital ER records. In this regard, the most worrying trend is amongst adolescent girls - the same group being most affected by gender ideology today:

In May 2020, during the COVID-19 pandemic, ED visits for suspected suicide attempts began to increase among adolescents aged 12–17 years, especially girls. During February 21–March 20, 2021, suspected suicide attempt ED visits were 50.6% higher among girls aged 12–17 years than during the same period in 2019; among boys aged 12–17 years, suspected suicide attempt ED visits increased 3.7%.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Self-reported, attempted suicide rates (which is 29% among male dysphorics) are not suicide rates. 100% of the sample in the study you are quoting was alive. Those rates go down with age, & are literally exactly the same percentage for LGB people, which makes sense since early-onset dysphorics are almost exclusively male homosexuals.

The suicide rate among male cross-sex role-players is 0.8% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/?fbclid=IwAR0KyMfRJG50rPKZOId8nhH27eXQJiBr-vX7_LkZ5-k2HtmQF1A9wnUFooA

8% detransition https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

What do you mean by "early-onset dysphorics"? If you mean "males/persons with early childhood-onset GD," please say that. It's already confusing enough when posters like circling keep using various terms loosely and as though they were interchangeable when they're not.

Thanks.

Also, whilst that Dutch study you cited (your first link) is interesting, I think it's too broad. It looked at medical records/patients' charts of all persons male & female who presented for "gender therapy" at any age of their lives and for any reason from 1972 through 2017. A 25-year-old male who sought care in a gender clinic in 1972 would have been been born in 1947 and thus can't be assumed to have much in common with a 25 y-old male who attending the same clinic in 2017, who would've been born in 1992 Similarly, neither would have much in common with a 15 year-old female attending the clinic in those same years.

The internet has made a huge difference in how widespread GD is; who is affected by it; how treatable or intractable it is; how transitory or persistent it is; and how common AGP is in males and issues like internalized misogyny and autoandrophilia are in females, etc. Young people growing up in the era of social media, internet porn, virutal reality, gaming culture are spending more time alone "living online" in a disembodied fantasy world than physically interacting with other people face-to-face in the flesh in the "real world." In the process, they seem to be developing more mental distress/illness, lower self-esteem, less stable senses of self, and more sexual dysfunction and so on.

The Dutch paper in your first link says:

Out of 5107 trans women (median age at first visit 28 years, median follow‐up time 10 years) and 3156 trans men (median age at first visit 20 years, median follow‐up time 5 years), 41 trans women and 8 trans men died by suicide. In trans women, suicide deaths decreased over time, while it did not change in trans men. Of all suicide deaths, 14 people were no longer in treatment, 35 were in treatment in the previous two years. The mean number of suicides in the years 2013–2017 was higher in the trans population compared with the Dutch population.

I think the last line is extremely pertinent. As is this from the USA's CDC more recently about the group who currently is being most affected by gender ideology and getting caught up in the GD and trans craze, namely adolescent females:

In May 2020, during the COVID-19 pandemic, ED visits for suspected suicide attempts began to increase among adolescents aged 12–17 years, especially girls. During February 21–March 20, 2021, suspected suicide attempt ED visits were 50.6% higher among girls aged 12–17 years than during the same period in 2019; among boys aged 12–17 years, suspected suicide attempt ED visits increased 3.7%.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

When I said early-onset dysphorics that's what I meant.

If we are discussing suicide rates then I'm not interested in suicide ideation rates masquerading as suicide rates. Every study has it's flaws, however the one I supplied has the least flaws since it's actually on completed suicides of men who identified as the opposite sex, unlike your latest link/excerpt which is about suicide ideation again, & it's not even on the demographic we're discussing.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But "early onset" is too vague IMO because it doesn't make clear exactly what "early" refers to, though my guess is you mean chronological age. This ignores that kids of the same exact chronological age can be at very different stages of development. After all, puberty in girls is only considered precocious and abnormal if it begins before 8, in boys before 9. So some girls of 8 and a boy 9 can be adolescents, whilst many of their exact same-age peers will still be pre-pubescent. Some kids won't start puberty until 12-14, in some cases even later.

your latest link/excerpt which is about suicide ideation again, & it's not even on the demographic we're discussing

My last link was about young people age 12-17 who ended up in US hospital ERs due to suicide attempts and suspected suicide attempts, not due to suicidal ideation. These persons had done things to themselves sufficiently serious to warrant emergency medical care. Such as getting their stomachs pumped. Yes, some cases of nonsuicidal self-harm were included, but throughout the reports says suicide attempts and suspected suicide attempts.

CDC examined NSSP ED visit data, which include approximately 71% of the nation’s EDs in 49 states (all except Hawaii) and the District of Columbia. ED visits for suspected suicide attempts were identified by using a combination of chief complaint terms and administrative discharge diagnosis codes. ED visits for suspected suicide attempts include visits for suicide attempts, as well as some nonsuicidal self-harm visits.

My last link showed that since 2020 and particularly in the first months of 2021 there's been a major hike in suspected suicide attempts among distressed American girls aged 12-17 with serious co-morbid mental health problems such as clinical depression, based on records of the number and kind of patients who've been treated in hospital ERs for actions that the treating clinicians believed to be suicide attempts, or self-harm so serious as to possibly constitute suicide attempts.

Girls age 12-17 are the precisely the demographic, or squarely within the demographic, who are identifying as trans most commonly today. Females 12-17 don't represent the entire demographic, as there are girls and women younger and older; and of course, this demographic excludes males. But girls 12-17 constitute a large portion of the youth demographic most affected by the trans craze today; and 12-17 is sort of the "sweet spot" for females most affected. After all, middle-aged and elderly heterosexual women are not coming out and claiming to be men today in droves the way so many middle-aged and senior-age heterosexual men are claiming to be women. Straight older women are not doing this at all.

Moreover, American girls in exactly this exact demographic - 12-17 with serious co-morbid mental health conditions - are the ones who today are getting the most extreme and irreversible "gender affirming" medical treatments - they're being put on development blockers; prescribed exogenous T; using breast binders that injure their tissue, skeletons, reduce their CV capacity and injure their health in myriad other ways; and large numbers of them are having their breasts surgically amputated too. The single most common "gender affirming" surgery today is double mastectomy - and most of these are being done on teenage girls in the US, though double mastectomies are being done to girls under 20 in Canada and, recently released records reveal, apparently as young as 16 & 17 in Scotland too. Double mastectomies were also done on many teen girls in Sweden, Finland and Australia before authorities in those countries put the brakes on the rush to put minors on the "trans train" there.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

I'm using the terminology outlined in the DSM-V. You can divide people who want to be the opposite sex into two groups: early-onset dysphorics & late-onset dysphorics. As I said in my original reply: early-onset dysphorics are typically male homosexuals, according to the DSM-V.

Suicide attempts ≠ suicide rates. Girls 12-17 ≠ men & boys who want to be the opposite sex.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

The 300 page study YOU cited lists suicide attempts at 40 percent among respondents not 29. I don’t have time to Comb it for the detransition statistics so I can’t comment on that.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I very clearly stated that 29% of the male ones (which are the ones under discussion) self-report attempting suicide: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20174218?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token The actual suicide rate however is under 1% as the other link I provided shows.

Combing isn't necessary, you just do a search of the document for 'de-trans', or 'eight percent', it's in chapter 7 p. 111.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The 300 page surgery but report you posted has self reported suicide attempts at 40 percent.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You already said that. As I have said multiple times now, a self-reported attempted suicide rate ≠ a suicide rate. The suicide rate is under 1%, making it "vanishingly rare". Seeing as detransition is more common, instead of using the suicide rate to justify transition, the detrans rate should be used to justify discouraging transition.