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[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I feel like using the terms trans woman/man is acknowledging them. There’s a huge difference imo between acknowledging trans people and pretending that TW are the same as women or TM are the same as men. We can- and should- acknowledge the existence of trans people without conflation.

It really does, and you're right. I agree completely.

The thing is, gender roles have nothing to do with the definitions of those words. So i don’t get why that hinders then from explaining how they fit into the definitions as they stand. If you have to redefine a word in order to make it fit your experience- that word doesn’t fit your experience, and you should find another word to use, because it does fit other people’s experience as it is currently defined. And it fits others experiences without gender roles being present.

Right, but I think many people see them as being synonymous... or maybe used to before the conversation of 'gender vs sex' wasn't really happening. So maybe that's a good thing now that it's actually trans people and TRAs themselves who are drawing attention to the difference between a gender role or sex role based on stereotypes, and sex itself. Maybe that's part of the strange mystery of gender dysphoria, that a person could have such difficulty understanding how they fit into a definition, or are aversive to trying to fit themselves into it, and would rather try to fit into a definition they can't.

Reality is all shared and can be experienced objectively, but not everyone perceives or interprets it the same way--which is kind of neat in a way! Maybe we would all think the same way and behave the same way otherwise. But forcing others to perceive and interpret reality differently is rather violating, particularly when one does so because they cannot accept something about reality. In this context, when I say "their reality", I mean the reality of their situation: of being a man or woman. They can't tolerate that aspect of their reality.

What's weird about the trans community is how it just seems to keep growing and expanding to include more people and designate more people as trans. When it was just transsexuals when there was more 'gatekeeping', it was so tiny I don't believe there was a community--like, the idea of a trans community seems quite new because there never were that many trans people before. But it's expanded to include so many people who never would have been called trans before (although I think the word 'transgender' was created by a non-transsexual to normalize crossdressing or something like that). Maybe we will reach a point where everyone is included under the 'trans umbrella' and will become bored of it, or just seeing it as made up or silly... and then that will be the end of the idea of gender identity entirely. Life is strange, I wouldn't be surprised if that happened!

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

it's actually trans people and TRAs themselves who are drawing attention to the difference between a gender role or sex role based on stereotypes, and sex itself.

LOL, you can't be serious. This is a classic example of redefining reality, rewriting history & appropriating the work/insights of others to make those who embrace trans ideology & QT appear to be an enlightened, more highly evolved, superior class who are doing us backwards, inferior rubes the great favor of "educating" us.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

They are geniuses--transgender is always right and always did it first (except for all the bad stuff). Their genius just can't go unnoticed, I won't stand for it. The world must know from whom they've gained this incredible wisdom!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess what I’m saying as far as definitions is that definitions are simply factual, so how someone may personally interpret them shouldn’t be a factor. Even the implications society places on words shouldn’t be a factor. Words still mean what they mean. The issue is the interpretation/implication, not the meaning. And tras/some trans people push the interpretation/implication, rather than diminishing it.

It’s kind of confusing to me how tras try to separate sex and gender but disregard that separation to validate themselves or just simply don’t understand that woman/man aren’t genders. They did a great job of pushing to separating the two, but cause harm by saying gender= brain, sex=genitals. because that’s not what gender means or has ever meant, so the implication always seems to be gender is your mind and reliant on the roles/stereotypes you prefer- which is incredibly regressive and sexist.

“Reality is all shared and can be experienced objectively, but not everyone perceives or interprets it the same way”

My point is still that reality is what it is regardless of how someone interprets or perceives it. That doesn’t mean we all behave the same, as human experiences will always vary vastly, but it does mean that some things just are and aren’t true, no matter what. To put it in the context of this sub- TW can claim to be female, they definitively aren’t, and that will always be provable. The reality is, some TW can appear to be female and or change their legal documents to female, and argue that they are “legally female”- which... I have a lot to say about that, but it’s not untrue. But the reality also is that legally or not, appearing so or not, they still aren’t actually female human beings.

I get what you’re saying about not being able to tolerate reality- but frankly, as insensitive as it is to say, that’s a personal problem, and the solution to that inability should not be to force everyone else to conform you what you’d prefer reality to be, that’s invasive and violating, particularly when it’s so easily proven that what someone may prefer reality to be is not factual.

I sometimes wonder if this whole “trans umbrella”, non binary, trans gender thing is an attempt to make people who aren’t trans (either actually transsexual or the large umbrella of anyone who is gnc and agrees to be labeled trans even if there’s no real reason to) think that there are more trans people in the world than there are, as an attempt to normalize being trans or avoid exactly what I’m saying- that the trans community is too small to warrant the demands they are making. If there are more trans people acknowledged, maybe they think it will make more sense to bend to their wants and needs, if that makes sense? When, to me, it seems that when trans just meant transsexual, there were less issues between trans people and people who aren’t trans. It seems easier to say “trans(sexual)women make up a small percentage of people, and they need a certain degree of compromise to be safe” than to say “anyone who identifies as a woman is one, and they deserve access to whatever space any woman would have access to, and they are entitled to having their sense of identity affirmed and not questioned.” The former kind of encourages protection of a small and vulnerable group*, the latter just tells women to deal with any male/man who demands inclusion and access to our spaces.

*that’s not to say that all women would be open to compromise, just that I think women in general were more open to sharing spaces and including TW in some situations, or at least not objecting to sharing some spaces in the past. obviously that’s not universal and there would still be objection, and was still some objection in the past. But I think there was less objection in the past than today, because ideology wasn’t being pushed on anyone, and transphobia was defined in a logical way- violence against trans people, hate speech or exclusion in general (as opposed to exclusion in sex specific spaces or situations).

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Language is a reflection of a collective way of thinking, and if words have the power to influence or shape some aspects of reality, it's not surprising that people would try to manipulate them in order to make people think or see things differently. That's probably the easiest way that a person might be able to influence reality, or another person's perception of it. I'd never really considered it until just now, but it's almost like a form of gaslighting on a grand scale, forcing people to question their understanding of the words and concepts of 'woman' and 'man'.

It’s kind of confusing to me how tras try to separate sex and gender but disregard that separation to validate themselves or just simply don’t understand that woman/man aren’t genders. They did a great job of pushing to separating the two, but cause harm by saying gender= brain, sex=genitals. because that’s not what gender means or has ever meant, so the implication always seems to be gender is your mind and reliant on the roles/stereotypes you prefer- which is incredibly regressive and sexist.

It's like so close yet so far off the mark. Gender has to be a thing that represents being sexed in the brain (that sounds terrible, if I think of a better way to word that I'll change it) because then gender becomes a biological affair and can be considered at least as valid and important as sex, if not more. One would think that if one recognizes a difference between the two then they would disregard the stereotypes or see that gender is an illusion.

My point is still that reality is what it is regardless of how someone interprets or perceives it. That doesn’t mean we all behave the same, as human experiences will always vary vastly, but it does mean that some things just are and aren’t true, no matter what. To put it in the context of this sub- TW can claim to be female, they definitively aren’t, and that will always be provable. The reality is, some TW can appear to be female and or change their legal documents to female, and argue that they are “legally female”- which... I have a lot to say about that, but it’s not untrue. But the reality also is that legally or not, appearing so or not, they still aren’t actually female human beings.

I get what you’re saying about not being able to tolerate reality- but frankly, as insensitive as it is to say, that’s a personal problem, and the solution to that inability should not be to force everyone else to conform you what you’d prefer reality to be, that’s invasive and violating, particularly when it’s so easily proven that what someone may prefer reality to be is not factual.

It certainly is an individual problem to be unable to accept reality, and it's one that shouldn't be forced on everyone else. I understand and appreciate GC efforts to reinforce and encourage acceptance of reality, because it is literally delusional to be out of touch with reality and believe untrue things in the face of evidence. Making peace with the way things actually are should really be a solution and goal for people with gender dysphoria and/or cross-sex identification, and it would do well to help such people that way as opposed to just going along with false or harmful beliefs. It seems better to shatter the illusion. As you say, there can be truth in something like being "legally female" while still not being female, and as long as that's acknowledged, then there shouldn't be any problems with that.

I sometimes wonder if this whole “trans umbrella”, non binary, trans gender thing is an attempt to make people who aren’t trans (either actually transsexual or the large umbrella of anyone who is gnc and agrees to be labeled trans even if there’s no real reason to) think that there are more trans people in the world than there are, as an attempt to normalize being trans or avoid exactly what I’m saying- that the trans community is too small to warrant the demands they are making. If there are more trans people acknowledged, maybe they think it will make more sense to bend to their wants and needs, if that makes sense? When, to me, it seems that when trans just meant transsexual, there were less issues between trans people and people who aren’t trans. It seems easier to say “trans(sexual)women make up a small percentage of people, and they need a certain degree of compromise to be safe” than to say “anyone who identifies as a woman is one, and they deserve access to whatever space any woman would have access to, and they are entitled to having their sense of identity affirmed and not questioned.” The former kind of encourages protection of a small and vulnerable group*, the latter just tells women to deal with any male/man who demands inclusion and access to our spaces.

I absolutely love your theory, I think maybe you're not far from the truth. It seems like there really wasn't that much controversy and pushback when the conversation was more reasonable, but it's no surprise that now that there are so many more people who self-identify as trans or become trans that the demands are growing because there are accommodations and exceptions being requested that transsexuals never would have or wanted to ask/demand before. It's funny that there are so many trans people wanting to be recognized as trans and being so vocal about it when that just seems so counterintuitive to transitioning, or at least what transition was meant to help with originally. It makes me wonder if it's because they don't want to or just can't blend in as the sex they want to be seen as. It's incredibly annoying and frustrating to have the worst problems that trans people face revolve around petty things like preferred pronouns and the idea that it's transphobic to acknowledge sex. That's just embarrassing to me. I don't blame anyone for being fed up with gender ideology and trans people because of how nasty people are getting over rather trivial things, then further demanding more to the point of violating others' rights and space; the behavior is psychopathic.

I would hope it's helpful to set better examples. A new therapist I'm seeing wanted to start a support group for trans people, and she asked me to participate and help lead it with her (hence my post a bit back about leading a group!). I'm very uncomfortable with it because of bad experiences I've had, but I'm trying to use it as an opportunity to set a better example by being completely honest and frank (in a nice way), acknowledging sex and trying to keep these poor kids grounded (they aren't children, I'm just older than most of them). I see the positive feedback loop of unquestioning affirmation happening there, it's very weird and worrisome, it's evident how people can become removed from reality more and more with this 'soft' brainwashing.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with everything you said. I think the part about the current narrative being counterintuitive is a really good point. I always wonder how the current tra narrative was interpreted by “transmed” people. I always kind of assumed that it would be incredibly frustrating.