QT: Do women have a right to boundaries?

submitted by Penultimate_Penance from (self.GCdebatesQT)

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

We don’t have to absolve ourselves of any guilt. We don’t have anything to do with male on male violence. That’s the thing- even if TW aren’t safe in male spaces, it has nothing to do with females and we shouldn’t be robbed of our needs and spaces to solve an issue that isn’t related to us.

You can’t place guilt on females because other males may assault you.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (9 children)

Then that’s the stance she should be taking if that’s what she means, not pretending we are safe with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

My comment had nothing to do with her stance. My point is safe or unsafe, the issue has nothing to do with women so we (and our spaces) shouldn’t have anything to do with the solution to the problem.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Again if that’s the stance, take it, not everyone cares about harm to other people. But my issue is with the denial that we are harmed at all which OP absolutely made.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Sure, but do you think women deserve to have their own spaces away from men like you transwomen?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I’m not clear what you are asking. Do you mean for trans women?

In that case I’ve said repeatedly single occupancy neutral spaces would be better. I’m obviously not unfamiliar with being uncomfortable being around men while vulnerable. That’s the whole safety concern I’m talking about.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I’m chiming in on your convo with Another poster.

I understand that you think single space occupancy is ideal. My question is, regardless of your preference or even your needs, do you think that women deserve to be able to have spaces that are exclusively just for women (women meaning adult female humans)?

It’s a simple yes or no question.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

It’s not a yes or no question. Because I don’t believe including us would take anything away but it’s also not what I’m advocating for.

I can see why you would want that in things like locker rooms and bathrooms and in the event that there were safe alternatives for trans people I could see the argument for excluding us, but op also talked about things like hobby groups which seems like a discrimiation issue but also why would you want to be involved in a social situation where you weren’t wanted? It’s not as simple as a yes or no on that level.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sounds like a no, you don’t think women have a right to their own spaces. It’s not okay for a male to tell females that including males doesn’t take anything away from females- you’re just not in a position to make that claim, because you’re the one wanting to be included despite not fitting the criteria, for lack of better phrasing. It’s not about how you feel, it’s about how the women in the space you want to be included in feel. If it’s a hobby group specifically for women, that means the women in the group wanted to be in a group that was just for women. It’s not discriminatory to not want males in a group specifically for women, when letting in males undermines the whole point of the group. I get that you want it to be complicated, but it’s not. You either think women should be allowed to have their own spaces, or you don’t. It really seems like you don’t.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

To me, I am a woman, so my inclusion doesn’t effect whether it is a woman’s space or not. You disagree. I don’t know that there’s anywhere to go from that fundamental level or disagreement.

You want me defined by genetics, I want to be defined by who I am. I don’t know that there’s ground to be found between those to be found.

[–]Greensquidsphone 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (36 children)

Sure, cool, still not going to put myself at risk to protect the feelings of a fringe group who wouldn't offer the time of day to me.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

I didn’t think you’d stop invading female spaces lol. I’m just pointing out that it’s ridiculous to blame women for what other men may do to you.

And it has nothing to do with a fringe group lol. Regardless of whether the women who are in the female spaces you invade feel safe or not, the fact remains it makes no sense to blame women for male on male violence.

[–]Greensquidsphone 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (34 children)

Inherent guilt, acquired from denying that violence against trans people doesn't exist when it clearly does. I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just telling you to quit with the mental gymnastics to absolve yourselves. Just say you're more comfortable with TW being attacked than "invading" a safer space.

And an edit, like circling said, if a single sex space exists, I'm using it first.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao inherent guilt. That’s some original sin level crap and you still say this isn’t a religion you’re pushing.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

I didn’t deny anything. It still has nothing to do with females. There’s no guilt on females. It has absolutely nothing to do with women. You’re the one doing mental gymnastics to try to justify telling women it’s our fault that a man may attack you.

What’s to stop a man from noticing you in whatever public space you’re in, and waiting for you to come out of the women’s room? What’s to stop them from waiting for you to exit whatever space you’re in, and beating you up? If somebody wants to attack you, they don’t need to do it in the men’s room, and they’d be more likely to get away with it if they didn’t. People tend to notice when someone comes out of a bathroom looking like they got beat. So invading female spaces saves you from getting attacked in the men’s room specifically, but it does nothing to stop you from getting attacked when you leave.

Just say you don’t respect women or our rights lol

Eta-

You: I’m not blaming anyone

Also you: Lying to absolve yourselves of any guilt ain’t it chief

[–]Greensquidsphone 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

God, Sloane it's like I say one thing and you go to Twitter, read something someone else wrote, and the complain to me about it as if I wrote it. Again, I personally am blaming 0 women for the assaults a man would commit. I am telling THE OTHER POSTER (though you're included seeing as you're just as willing to make up shit to justify why actually it's SAFER for me in the men's room or some shit) that claiming it is perfectly safe for me to consistently use men's restrooms to make their argument stronger is mental gymnastics.

I respect plenty of women. Just not most of the ones here. :)

I'm home from work, going to sleep, and it's my weekend so I won't have any reason to look here for a couple days. Lemme do the nicest thing I've ever done Sloane and tell you not to write a lengthy response after somehow interpreting that I get off on the destruction of women's rights because it will not be read. I can't stop you, but you've been warned. Love you, bud. Gnight

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For whoever does read it, though I know squid will lol:

I already said that TW can be victims of violence. I didn’t disagree with you. You are the one who used the word “guilt” first. That’s was what I was responding to.

I didn’t say it would be safer for you in the men’s room at all, I asked you what would stop a man who wants to attack you from attacking you when you exit whatever bathroom you use. It was a genuine question. I don’t see how using the women’s room prevents a man who wants to commit violence against you from figuring out how to do just that. The mental gymnastics are coming from you, not me. You’re misinterpreting my words. I’m literally just asking what would stop a man from following you when you leave an establishment and attacking you, as opposed to attacking you in a men’s room, knowing that eventually you will exit the men’s room and or someone will enter it while he’s attacking you? Like- real women get attacked by men while walking to their cars, or walking in the wrong place, it’s a valid concern and question. But you’d rather try to act as if I’m saying something I’m not, and I’m thinking it’s because you have no answer to my question.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

What’s to stop a man from noticing you in whatever public space you’re in, and waiting for you to come out of the women’s room? What’s to stop them from waiting for you to exit whatever space you’re in, and beating you up?

The fact that it’s a public space and therefore more likely a woman would see and call for help. Also it would be easier for us to run away.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

That’s pretty naive. Women get attacked in public spaces all the time. And as I said, it’s stupid to attack someone in a public bathroom. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I know it has. I’m saying all women understand that it being a public space doesn’t mean you’re safe. If somebody wants to attack you, they will figure out how to. They don’t need you to be in the men’s room to do it.

Eta- I’m not saying this to argue or debate, I’m being genuine. If you’re thinking you’re safe from attack because you think you can run away or it’s a public space, that’s not necessarily true and I want anyone who may be vulnerable to know that. I’ve heard too many stories of people getting attacked in public spaces or followed (from a public space) and attacked.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

That doesn’t make any sense. Public means witnesses, more likely someone will help a woman or call for help for a trans woman, easier to flee. Isolation in a private one exit space is as dangerous as you could make it. At least in the open I can try to run.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I mean... there’s plenty of cases that verify what I said but whatever.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m not saying people can’t be attacked in public, just that it’s not a worse case scenario.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

You are being incredibly naive here. There have been many documented cases in many different countries over many decades of a girl or woman being attacked by either a single man or a group of men in public whilst many other people watched and decided to do nothing.

Just last week in New York City, a big burly man age 38 attacked a tiny Asian woman age 65 on a midtown street in broad daylight. Once he had flattened her on the sidewalk, he kept kicking her in the head. The film footage shows that several able-bodied, strong looking male people in the prime of their lives witnessed the whole attack - and they responded by closing/locking the door of the building they were in and averting their gaze.

Turns out the man who committed this attack has a particular animosity towards older women. He'd recently been paroled from prison for killing his own mother 20 years ago.

in the open I can try to run.

Yes, that's true - and I hope that's what you'll do in situations where you've been threatened or feel threatened. But please understand that males have many superior abilities over females in physically reacting to a threat, starting to run and continuing to run.

I wish you well and hope you never get attacked. But as a woman who has been attacked and menaced by males in numerous public settings - humped, groped and masturbated at multiple times by pervs on the subway/tube as a teenager & young woman; masturbated at when middle-aged and visibly pregnant in a shopping center; punched in the face in a museum by a crazy man shouting that I was a whore, for example - I can testify with certainty that you are dead wrong in alleging that when girls/women "call for help" in public spaces our calls are usually or always heeded.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You are being incredibly naive here. There have been many documented cases in many different countries over many decades of a girl or woman being attacked by either a single man or a group of men in public whilst many other people watched and decided to do nothing.

I didn’t say someone would definitely help, I said the chances were higher.

I wish you well and hope you never get attacked.

Thank you, but I must point out I have been attacked. I was attacked by a group of men the last time I ever entered a men’s room. That’s how I am so certain they aren’t safe. Again, it’s not certain someone will help but the odds of help are higher around other people than in a bathroom.

[–]kwallio 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just say you're more comfortable with TW being attacked than "invading" a safer space

You seem to be avoiding a particular fact, which is that male on male violence demands nothing from women. Not inclusion in our spaces, not sympathy nothing. Deal with your own problems.