QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And why are men not expected to be inclusive too? Why are words like ejaculators, prostate havers, impregnators, individuals with testicles, non-birthing parents, bepenised people, and etcetera not being imposed?

well, from an equality standpoint, yes, in the same contexts in which anatomy based terms are used for subjects pertaining to the female biological sex, anatomy based terms should also be used for the male biological sex. Also, "non-birthing parent" is being pushed for (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22non-birthing+parents%22&rlz=1C1GIWA_enDE641DE641&oq=%22non-birthing+parents%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i30.4615j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 with https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9262007/Academics-Australian-National-University-told-staff-stop-using-word-mother.html in particular) and while I could not find "people with prostate" I could find "people with prostate cancer" ( https://www.google.com/search?q=%22people+with+prostate%22&rlz=1C1GIWA_enDE641DE641&sxsrf=ALeKk01zFurYGzvAtuVhwzvj8kSLYpH6TQ:1613738413313&ei=rbEvYMfBEuTBlAa0-6iIBQ&start=0&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwiHzIqH_PXuAhXkIMUKHbQ9ClE4MhDy0wN6BAgGEDo&biw=1920&bih=975 ) instead of "men with prostate cancer".

In these last years trans activists have preached, quite successfully, about the importance of using “inclusive language”. Words related to womanhood like woman, mother, breastfeeding, among others are now considered exclusionary of trans identified people. As result, people are pressured to be inclusive of trans people and not trigger them when talking. That is how terms like people with periods, menstruators, pregnant people, birthing parent, uterus-havers, individuals with cervix, people who bleed, chestfeeding, non-prostate owners, among many other have entered the scene. What is more, transactivists have not considered women’s opinion over this change in language, regardless of how dehumanizing this language often is.

Also, despite how much they boast about being intersectional, they don’t care either how confusing this new language may be for non-native speakers or for people with lower levels of education.

well, my solution (that I wanted to propose in a thread to the same subject) was something along the lines of "Men/Women and other people with [anatomical term]" and "Men/Women and other people who [biological process]" . That would be inclusive of people with poor language skills/poor anatomical knowledge while also being inclusive of transgender (who, depending on the state of transition, might still have the anatomical features/biological processes of their birth sex) and intersex people (who, depending on the intersex condition in question, might have anatomical features/biological processes that are at odds with the sex of the gender they are identifying as). This has also the advantage of clarifying which anatomical feature/biological process is the relevant one in question.

Questions 1 and 2 aren't directed toward me, so I am skipping them.

For all, don’t you think it’s contradictory that you complain that GC reduce people to their genitals when we insist on a sex-based definition of women and men, and then you impose new words that reduce women to their body parts and body functions?

"men" and "women", as understood under the transgender paradigm, are social categories, not biological ones. Of course, for the purpose of healthcare, biology still has to be adressed, and because the scientific terminology relating to biological functions is often cold, clinical and difficult to understand, language using this terminology is also cold, clinical and difficult to understand. Therefore my suggested solution of "Men/Women and other people with/who ...", covering both the typical cases (non-intersex cisgender people) while still including the atypical ones (intersex and/or transgender people)

[–]emptiedriver 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"men" and "women", as understood under the transgender paradigm, are social categories, not biological ones.

But how do you become associated with either category? For most of us, it is simply a biological fact. Only trans people, and perhaps some limited segment of "cis-identified" people though it can't really be proven, have an inner sense of gender. The vast majority of us know what sex we are based on bodily realities.

Of course, for the purpose of healthcare, biology still has to be adressed, and because the scientific terminology relating to biological functions is often cold, clinical and difficult to understand, language using this terminology is also cold, clinical and difficult to understand.

Well, except that it does not need to be. That's why we have the words "man", "woman", "male", and "female". For the purposes of healthcare, sexual relations, sports and physical events, private issues, and various other situations where our biological realities impact the ways that we interact with the world. If there were no biological difference, there would be no need for the words.

The whole inner identity is a fiction. It is loosely based on stereotypes of how biologically different people behave, but it is meaningless.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But how do you become associated with either category? For most of us, it is simply a biological fact. Only trans people, and perhaps some limited segment of "cis-identified" people though it can't really be proven, have an inner sense of gender. The vast majority of us know what sex we are based on bodily realities.

of course transgender people are aware of the biological sex they are, after all, the physical sexed features are the source of their gender dysphoria. If you don't feel distress about your physical sexed features (simplifying here, for more in depth criteria see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria#Diagnosis ) you are the gender identity of your physical sex.

Well, except that it does not need to be. That's why we have the words "man", "woman", "male", and "female". For the purposes of healthcare, sexual relations, sports and physical events, private issues, and various other situations where our biological realities impact the ways that we interact with the world. If there were no biological difference, there would be no need for the words.

of course there are biological differences between the typical male and female anatomies, what is questioned is that the terms "man" and "woman" are biological terms, simply because the people in this categories typically have a similar biology.

The whole inner identity is a fiction. It is loosely based on stereotypes of how biologically different people behave, but it is meaningless.

Gender identity is not stereotypes or gender roles. A person could love to perform activities stereotypical for and love to wear the clothing stereotypically asociated with their birth sex, and still have a different gender identity, if the person in question experiences gender dysphoria in regards to the sexed anatomy of their birth sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

of course transgender people are aware of the biological sex they are, after all, the physical sexed features are the source of their gender dysphoria. If you don't feel distress about your physical sexed features (simplifying here, for more in depth criteria see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria#Diagnosis ) you are the gender identity of your physical sex.

Professionals rely on the clinical criteria in the DSM and the ICD, not Wikipedia. The clinical criteria for childhood-onset and adolescent/adult-onset "gender dysphoria" in the DSM and ICD as well as the vast professional literature on the topic DO NOT support the claim that transgender people's "physical sexed features are the source of their gender dysphoria." At all.

On the contrary, it is very possible to meet the criteria for a diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" at any age whilst having no negative feelings about one's genitals and other physical sex characteristics.

All that is required for a clinical DX of GD is a belief/claim that one should be the opposite sex (or no sex in the newer formulation), plus a desire/preference for the sex-stereotyped clothing, toys, interests and roles associated with the opposite sex, and perhaps a desire for (some or all of) the physical sex traits of the opposite sex. (Or in some newer variations of the criteria, a desire for the sex characteristics of neither sex.)

But desiring the sex characteristics of the opposite sex does not necessarily mean disliking one's own sex characteristics. Many males who are trans nowadays want to have a mix of female and male sex characteristics (feminized face, no beard, little or no body hair, female hairline and hair growth pattern, the appearance of female breasts, female body shape, penis and testicles). And some males who are trans today say their ideal genital configuration would be a penis and testicles along with a surgically-created pocket in the pelvis they could consider a vagina and could use for the purpose of being penetrated "like a woman."

The DSM-5 defines gender dysphoria in children as "a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender" and one's sex lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least 6 of the following 8 criteria (one of which must be the first criterion):

  • A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
  • In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
  • A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
  • A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
  • A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
  • In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
  • A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
  • A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

Only 1 of these 8 criteria involves disliking one's own sex anatomy and physical characteristics. As only 6 of the 8 criteria are required for a DX, having that one trait is not essential.

Same goes for adult/adolescent GD. To be DX'd with this, a person has to have "a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least six months’ duration, as manifested by at least 2 or more of the following":

  • A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
  • A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
  • A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
  • A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
  • A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
  • A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

Remember, only two of the above are required to get a clinical diagnosis of adult/adolescent GD. And what "the other gender" means is never explained. But when pressed about what "the other gender" means, people with "gender dysphoria" typically come up with a list of sex stereotypes - or vague mumbo jumbo that relies on circular reasoning and constant repetition of the word gender: people with gender dysphoria feel distress over their gender; people with gender dysphoria desire to be seen and treated as the other gender; gender dysphoria involves distress over their gender..."

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

Gender identity is not stereotypes or gender roles. A person could love to perform activities stereotypical for and love to wear the clothing stereotypically asociated with their birth sex, and still have a different gender identity, if the person in question experiences gender dysphoria in regards to the sexed anatomy of their birth sex.

This makes no sense. Coz the concept and diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" are entirely reliant on embrace of, indeed preoccupation with, sex stereotypes. To get a DX of "gender dysphoria," you simply have to meet some of the criteria in the above checklists. In children, nearly all the criteria are about sex stereotypes - and since kids have to meet 6 of 8 criteria, embrace of sex stereotypes and preference for the sex stereotypes associated with the opposite sex are essential.

In adults, the clinical criteria for GD are mostly about desiring to be the other "gender," believing one is the other gender, thinking one has the feelings of the other gender, wanting to be treated as the other gender. When you drill down to find out what all this vague gobbledygook actually means, the responses make it clear that gender for people with "gender dysphoria" boils down to a bunch of regressive sex stereotypes. Take away sex stereotypes, and the whole edifice collapses like a house of cards.