Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association?

submitted by LemurLemur from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]LemurLemur[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

The main GC sub (both here and on Ovarit) has some people who paint the entire trans community with too broad of a brush. I don't support that.

You are the only poster that has even acknowledged this. Thank you. I think I remember seeing your posts on the reddit sub, and I always appreciated your perspectives. I wish there were more people I could talk to about this, because I have a lot of problems with the way trans people act, too. There's plenty of things GC talk about that i think should be explored. But man, the GC hostility is hard to wade through. Thanks for answering in good faith, I also do try to remember when I have good interactions with GC people. Even if they don't happen as often as I wish they did.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

No problem, and welcome to the sub. Please feel free to stick around. We could definitely use more QT people.

I've always had some issues with the main GC sub. It's why I avoided it while I was on Reddit, but after the banwave, I said screw it, moderate gender critical women need to have our voices heard, too. So I started participating, but I don't always agree with everything that's said. There was one commenter on Ovarit the other day who basically painted all trans people as perverts who shouldn't be allowed near children. I was like, dude, way to make us all look like a bunch of bigots. Our valid criticisms are overshadowed when people get hyperbolic and start making extreme statements like that.

My main concern has always been for fellow gender nonconforming people, especially natal females, and children of both sexes. It bothers me when people only see the the lack of "niceness" of some of our community without listening to what the rest of us are actually saying. It's a problem for both sides, to be honest. I'm sure there are tons of trans men and women who don't support whatever some random trans person says on Twitter. It's the same everywhere. It's like if someone has a different political opinion these days, they're automatically evil. American politics is plagued with an "us vs. them" mentality.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Our valid criticisms are overshadowed when people get hyperbolic and start making extreme statements like that.

I agree with this. There's a lot of things I've seen GC people discuss that I agree with in concept, but they way they talk about it is what drives me away from ever wanting to be part of GC culture (I'm not trans, but my sister is and we have discussions about this a lot). The problem is, every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

It bothers me when people only see the the lack of "niceness" of some of our community without listening to what the rest of us are actually saying.

It's honestly just not healthy to, dude. The responses to even this post, where I'm only asking if GC wants to be associated with this sort of behavior, I'm being called annoying and stupid. I don't think it's annoying and stupid to ask, and I don't think GC shouldn't be "allowed" to call me annoying and stupid, but I do think it's counter to my mental health to listen or internalize the opinions of people who consider me annoying and stupid, especially when part of telling me their perspective also includes elaborating on how annoying and stupid I am in the same time.

It's a problem for both sides, to be honest.

I agree with this. I've debated with people in trans communities as well, and I've seen plenty of rudeness there as well. But maybe because there's less unified opinions than there is in GC circles (it seems no two people have the same relationship with their own transition, or with the people they interact with post transition), but when someone is rude to me on most trans subs, there's at least other trans people who have also stood up for me, who tried to empathize where I was coming from. I've had multiple trans people message me and try to encourage me not to take my bad experiences as a sign that all trans people are equally negative...

I don't see this happen in GC circles. While trans people can be rude, there is at least a pretty wide swath of the community that will acknowledge that it happens and try to openly fight back against their own community to reclaim a less hostile narrative. I don't see this happen in GC circles. I rarely see any GC person even able admit GC has ever done anything to exacerbate the hostility at all. It's all just "TRA's hate us so everything we do and say is in self defense and thus completely excuseable". As it sounds like you've experienced, any GC people who do try to counter the narrative tend to get shouted down and accused of not being "real" GC.

So like... I agree with more GC positions than I do greater trans positions (like transwomen in sports ect), but the trans community at least has large pockets of people who don't hurt anybody and can just talk about movies and hiking and share art ect without needing to embrace the narrative that anyone "non-trans" is worthless trash. So I have more actually enjoyable conversations with trans people than GC people.

I really miss the old reddit sub, when it didn't just feel like GC people were sitting on a spiderweb, waiting for non-GC people to post here so they can jump down their throats and chase them away.

Please feel free to stick around. We could definitely use more QT people.

I wanted to stick around. I was really excited to find this sub, after it vanished from reddit and made a saidit account specifically to be able to chat here. But after slogging through and trying to respond to everyone here, only to be told over and over that I'm just annoying, stupid, rude, incapable of answering questions (tho no one will tell me what I'm failing to answer), incapable of forming arguments (even when I'm not trying to argue at all), and that if GC is rude to me, it's because I deserve it... I don't really know why anyone would want to stick around. I feel like I've just gone 10 rounds with my abusive gaslighting mother who used all the same lines on me ("I'm not abusive, you just deserve it for being stupid; if you can't answer for things you didn't even do it means I'm right; I'm actually the victim and you're attacking me" ect.) That's not even mentioning how bad the circle-jerking of GC people high-fiving one another for each comment, making it seem like the whole sub likes watching a dogpile...

If you ever find a sub where people can talk about GC stuff while also acknowledging the problems in GC, please feel free to message me. I'd love to participate. But this sub is not fun to participate on, and I am not surprised non-GC people do not stay long.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, you and your sister are both welcome here if you want to participate. Not everyone is super combative. I feel like GC has got its pitbulls, but we've also got our golden retrievers. I prefer discussion to debate. I can debate about stuff, sure, and I do feel very strongly about things like child transition and BDSM, but I try to avoid making it personal. I know a lot of other GC people may just be out of patience, especially after hearing the same arguments repeatedly, but that's kind of what debate is. Two sides with opposite positions duking it out. It's like Christians vs. atheists. They don't have to hate each other, but sometimes the atheists are frustrated with the Christians because they keep getting the same excuses and what are (to them) non-answers.

The problem is, every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

We do have our QT regulars, but yeah, I get what you're saying. It was hard to attract long-term QT posters on the old sub, too. I think maybe some GC posters expect people to argue in bad faith, and so they adopt an adversarial tone right off the bat. To be honest, I don't know what it is. I don't think it's productive. But this is why I got in trouble for "tone policing" before. It's like, we already have an unpopular message. Why make it more unpopular with your style of delivery? It's bad strategy if nothing else.

But it's also true that we could bend over backwards to be nice, and it wouldn't matter. There are certain factions that want to shut down all discussion. Not just with threats of violence, but also suppression of our views. The Abigail Shrier book is a good example. She's respectful to trans people. She fully supports adult transition. She's not even against all forms of child transition. But the mere fact that she wrote a book about what's happening to natal female teenagers is enough to warrant active suppression and people calling for her book to be burned (an English professor) and withdrawn from circulation (an ACLU lawyer).

It's fucking scary out there. Which is why maybe GC women can be forgiven for sometimes feeling like we're under siege. It doesn't make personal attacks okay, but you can see why some of us may be out of patience. I'm more a "reach across the aisle" sort of person, but sometimes it feels like the people on the other side of the aisle are positioned to strike us. Women have lost their jobs for saying what we're saying. They've been subjected to rape and death threats. The other side is notably not on the receiving end of violence for their views, certainly not from us.

But back to this sub, I do hope you stick around. You can also not respond to certain people if you feel they're too aggressive. That's what I do. Our current sub is a lot smaller, but I feel like we actually lost some of our pitbulls in the transition. It seems overall more mild, although it does still skew GC. One major advantage here, though, no downvoting. That always pissed me off on the old sub. Like, why have a debate sub if you're going to downvote the other side to oblivion? Either we want debate or we don't. I would hate for this community just to become a big circlejerk.