Zionist are only loyal to Israel. But if you're not a jew and you call them out on it ...you're being "antisemitic"...

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[–]westway9 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

How frequently is opposition to Zionism misconstrued as opposition to the Jewish religion? Are the university kids really brainwashing into hating all Jewish people, or are they just upset over the Zionist settlement practices?

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Zionism doesn't exist without jews

[–]Jiminy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Having that land as a homeland god promised them is key to the religion so Judaism and Zionism is the same thing. So any jew supports Israel first unless they are an atheist

[–]westway9 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

But wasn't a lot of Jewish theology developed after the destruction of the second temple and their exile from Israel? There are entire sects of Jews who are anti-Zionists. So I don't think the two are one in the same.

[–]Jiminy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That reminds me of the different sects of Judaism that were around during the time before and after Jesus. Some were pro Roman occupation some were anti. Some said a messiah would come to remove the Romans for them . Some sects are still waiting for this messiah and think the Jews shouldn't return to the homeland until the messiah gets here. If you look at any large religion there are lots of differing views. But it's such a tiny minority it's not worth discussing. 99.99999% believe in the Torah which has the description of genesis and Noah in it and that's where god gives them the land and says they're chosen people. The Torah does not say a messiah must come first. It just meant an anointed one in that.

[–]westway9 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

While this may influence pious Jews, I really question whether secular ones in America have the same perspective. Notice how many of the liberal elitists at university campuses leading the charge against Israeli apartheid are Jews themselves.

[–]Jiminy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Secular ones, that means atheist right?

Although they are starting to worry about antisemitism from some students on campuses so there might be a trend toward supporting Israel due to that, or being neutral at least. That Hamas attack scared a lot of them.

[–]westway9 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nah, secular just means they don't think religion should play a direct role in politics or public affairs.

[–]Jiminy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok tho I guess it can be hard to tell what someone is thinking. But I think if a religious Jew doesn't believe in the core tenet of Judaism they really believe in a different religion. Christianity was a jewish sect but it disagreed with a cite tenet, curcumvusion, so it split into a separate religion. I do think secular means atheist. Or just hasn't thought religion thru to its logical conclusion. If you're going to believe in a religion you go all in.

So anyway a Zionist is loyal to Israel. There are non Jewish zionists, Christians etc. but I assumed the OP only meant Jewish zionists. I do think all Jews want Israel to be occupied by Jews, and Herzl rebranded it as zionists so gentiles felt better about supporting Israel, Jews were unpopular thru Europe and USA. The ottomans had ruled Palestine. Some Jews lived there and didn't want to anger the ottomans, others were revolutionary and wanted to fight. Like the zealots against the romans.

[–]westway9 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

To be frank, if Christianity can survive the division of the faith caused by the Protestant Reformation, then Jews can survive not owning all of historical Israel.

[–]Jiminy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Do they want to just survive tho

[–]westway9 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Unknown and immaterial. The history of the world is the history of human ideals failing and society finding compromises to live with those failures.

[–]Jiminy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But also not compromising when religion is involved. Let's be frank, you're talking about Jews all leaving Israel. And letting Muslims have it. Why don't the Muslims compromise and leave? Cuz it's valuable land and important to their religion.

[–]westway9 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm fine with Jews staying in Israel. I just think they should leave the West Bank and honor the original partition plan. Unilaterally, if need be.

[–]Jiminy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Can't, too dangerous

[–]SMCABwhatever 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I often complain about this. It's just easier to say Jews. That's really about it. I try to tell people that would like to educate people in real life about the Zionist problem.

Both comments already made to you are correct. But from a context of education, no one is getting anywhere screaming jews jews jews. You'll never get past the initial conversation.

I can scream from the top of my lungs that "The Jews did 9/11." Because they did, But that won't get me anywhere with anyone who isn't educated on the issue. I'd be better off starting them on The Project for a New American Century and how that's tied to Zionism and ease into it.

[–]westway9 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That seems like a thoughtful and prudent approach. I would also add one should judge people based upon their actions and character, instead of their religion.

My grand parents were Ashkenazi Jews who moved to America in the 1900s and participated in WWII. After the war, they told my mother that their loyalty lay with America, not the new state of Israel. They took nationalism seriously.

[–]SMCABwhatever 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah I don't know. Of course you can't lump all people from a religion together. But that said religion usually creates a unified behavior as well.

If you study the Talmud and do not speak against the parasitic ways in which Jews have infiltrated and subvert other countries economies and governments, I have no use for it. I can't give the group a pass on the whole.

I'm an American and I rail against my govt. I believe in the Constitution and anyone who acts against it can disappear for all I care. If you aren't preserving my liberty, nothing else matters. The only black people I respect are the ones who are embarrassed of their races collective actions, and the only Jews I can get down with understand their subversion tactics, including the lies told by the victors of WWII.

I'm sure your grandparents were stand up. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Doesn't excuse the groups actions on the whole.

Genuine people speak against the troublesome actions of their race and or religion. Now, if you turn it into a contest, it isn't my fault who does better or worse, I'm just watching. There is no room for flag waving.

[–]westway9 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will concede that it is hard to ignore the fact that, if you want to remove a social phenomenon, you have to look at the community which is responsible for manifesting it. Hamas members did not spring out of the desert fully formed. They were birthed by mothers, and grew up in a community which taught them to become the monsters they are. In a way, kill Hamas fighters without finding a way to stopping the radicalization process of their children is a fool's errand.

If the Israelis would spend more time on socially engineering Gaza's civilians away from fanaticism, they may have better results.

The same logic would apply in your hypothetical scenario. Any parasitic communities would need to be engaged, and then either persuaded or reeducated to stop their harmful behavior.