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My Thoughts on What's Wrong with Saidit(self)

89 points88 points91 points submitted by Nemesis

I've lurked here a long time, posted on occasion over the last year. I've grown fond of this website, but I've felt for a while now that the site has major issues. I can't tell if they've always been here, or if they're new, but nevertheless I see several core problems choking the life out of this site.
To begin, the central point of this site is the pyramid of debate, elevated discussion of ideas. A website for the "why" content, instead of the "what" content that dominates most of the internet (memes, conjecture, surface level observation, etc.). Before, this was never fully the case, but there was healthy discussion in many places. Today, though, outside of a few wonderful and determined users (e.g. /u/aureus ), this great idea is dead. Here's why I think this is.

  • Prolific Users Who Do Not Conform to Central Site Culture

There are a handful of users who post the majority of posts, you can see them everyday on the front-page. They post tons of links to videos, articles, lots of quote pictures, and you see it all over your feed, regardless of subs. The posts are lazy trash that you expect to see on your aunt's facebook. Great example is u/endlesssunflowers . Constantly shits out low effort memes or links to videos, will make a single comment that doesn't respond to anybody else, usually just a weird aside to himself or an imaginary strawman, ignores all the comments discussing the garbage he puts up, then moves on to his next shitpost. And he'll do this again and again throughout the day, no elevated discussion, just shitposting.

  • The Content Posted is Trash that Turns Away Users.

Again, consider the aforementioned user. Imagine you're a former Redditor who heard there's a place where you can discuss the issues without a hive mind policing dissension, where people are encouraged to avoid fallacies and actually think through things. Front-page you see this delightful post. 14-11 votes, 96 comments mostly pointing out that it's a shit quote, a one sentence claim by Einstein, and one single garbled comment from OP, our hero /u/endlesssunflowers, a smug fedora-tier attack on a strawman, not responding to any of the 95 comments, just musing to himself about "easily manipulated minds". 3 minutes later he's moved on, posting a random picture of Ireland. What happens to all these users actually putting effort into trying to engage with the post? When this happens everyday, they get demoralized, they think "why am I wasting my time trying to have elevated discussion here?". This is the new reality of saidit. The frontpage gets clogged with trash memes, conspiracy videos, and there's no way to really stop it, there's no downvote and there's always enough useful idiots to give it the 5-7 votes it needs to get seen. In a site like reddit with lots of active users, someone like endlesssunflowers would never get seen, because his content is just bad, a 90IQ socialist posting facebook memes. But here where the rest of the content is conspiracy videos and "reddit is dying lmao" updates, it has just enough contrast to, again, pickup the measly 10 or so votes you need to get views.

  • The People Who Stay Are Here Because There's No Quality Control

    The people you would actually want to be here, the people who want to argue and comment and think about the issues are being driven away, because actual discussion is being buried by these low effort, karma farming power users who industrially produce bad content. The new saiditor is someone who wants validation without effort, who wants upvotes for content that any other site would prune or downvote. If I post a video I find, "REPTILIANS BUILT ATLANTIS I FOUND PROOF" without any comments or thoughts, a 26min video I haven't even watched of "dude trust me" tier argument, even on 4chan it would be taken down. Here that's the average post. Perhaps you would argue "users are voting it, so that's what we get". I agree, but consider this. This site has been hemorrhaging users the last few months, people are leaving. Why? Because this content is all there is now, schizoposting and bad memes. For a while people got in the comments and tried to argue, but you can't argue with someone who's already moved to the next post, or someone who's shitposting this type of content 365 24/7. I think old saidit this content wouldn't fly as much, but when average content fundamentally changes then you can expect average users to change as well.

Suggestions: Limit link posts per day, nobody needs to make 10 link posts unless they're kharma farming. If these people had 3 a day, they would pick quality links, and actually stick around in comments to defend the content and explain why they felt like sharing it with everyone else.
Implement Ruqqus's system for users claiming dead subs. We have major subs that are unmoderated, this content needs to be curated or post quality will continue to degrade. It's too much to expect you and d3rr to wade through acres of shit and sift out diamonds while simultaneously working to maintain and improve the site. We need actual mods who can work to actually implement this dream of a "pyramid of debate" centered site. To expect this to happen organically is ridiculous. These are my thoughts, I don't expect anyone to care or clap, but I would be remiss if I didn't try to type something up for a site that I do, genuinely, care about before it's too late.

top 100 commentsshow all 108
[deleted] 19 insightful - 8 fun19 insightful - 7 fun20 insightful - 8 fun 4 years ago

[deleted]

Nemesis[S] 12 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

I agree with this, I don't think it would diminish the website at all. People would actually have to put together posts, not just copy-paste random links for internet points

Jesus 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

What? Sources are fine. Links are fine too. You are literally calling for censorship?

Nemesis[S] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

I'm guessing you misread or misunderstood, I'm not calling for the end of links/sources, this is more about post format

Jesus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Like C_S_T rules then.

Tom_BombadilBombadildo 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Sources are fine. Links are fine too. You are literally calling for censorship?

Agreed.

Saidit preserved the useful elements of Reddit, and discarded the info suppressing features (which were deliberately added).

Divisive shilling and sock puppet upvotes are the real issues.

No easy solutions for these.

[deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

[removed]

littleboyblue 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

i am the only moderator of a reddit subreddit that is financial services related.. i registered the subreddit for a well known banking institution.. someone recently made a post that used the word "covid" and it linked to one of the more disliked major social media outlets.. this post was removed, but i did not remove it.. who removed it?

censorship is now the norm.

fyi, in indonesia, a majority muslim country, unfriendly conversation is an indictable offense.

unfriendly conversation is now an indictable offense for all countries.

load more comments (1 reply)

[deleted] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I understand the appeal of getting rid of link posts, but limiting content almost never has the intended result. It results in less content, which means less users, which means even less content. Skipping over posts that aren't interesting is far preferable to me to having nothing to read.

SaidOverRed 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

Once that website tried to spread malware, I blocked it. I assume the spam posts are from a bot.

Jesus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

All that would do is make posts with links in them.

DrStrangelove 19 insightful - 7 fun19 insightful - 6 fun20 insightful - 7 fun 4 years ago

I'm mostly lurker too, and I've been here since the early days when there were only like 7 active users. Endlesssunflowers has been providing almost daily content for this site for 2+ years, out of the goodness of their heart, for free. If you want more engaging content I suggest you provide it instead of concern trolling saidit to take a swipe at someone you dislike. I'm not a fan of the ethno-nationalist bullshit that pops up here (I appreciate that it can, just rather it didn't) which certainly has more potential to turn off new users than a sentimental meme, but I've never felt the need to call anyone out by name for failing to meet my specific content quality and engagement needs, or tell M7 & D3rr how to curate their own project. This post is honestly the first time in my entire saidit experience I wish there was a downvote button. Bravo.

p.s. there is a "block" function

SaidOverRed 8 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

Some of us really, really don't like to use it. Also casual readers (those who don't create accounts) will see the unfiltered version...

Nemesis[S] 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun 4 years ago

Exactly, it's like noticing crime in your city is high, saying something about it at work, and someone tells you "stop reading the news". It's not a solution, things will never get better if people don't notice an issue, point it out and discuss.

bobbobbybob 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

no, you self obsessed idiot. Its about curating your own experience vs dictating everyone else's.

Don't like it? filter it. Let the rest of us filter to suit ourselves. We are not here to embrace 'growth', but to have a nice time.

And occasionally call out fascist wannabes like yourself.

SaidOverRed 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

At first I thought you were replying to me, but either way. Fine, have it your way. I'll click the "block user" button on you...

Jesus 8 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

Downvotes will be the downfall of saidit.

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

I think it would be good to have 3 votes - insightful, fun, and dislike - as long as their sorting/ratings are separate and won't affect each other (ie. as on YouTube) - to simply be statistical indicators.

Tom_BombadilBombadildo 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Endlesssunflowers has been providing almost daily content for this site for 2+ years, out of the goodness of their heart, for free. If you want more engaging content I suggest you provide it instead of concern trolling saidit to take a swipe at someone you dislike.

+3

Nemesis[S] 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun 4 years ago

I agree that it was mean of me to callout a specific user, but the point of my post isn't to whine that content isn't engaging enough, it's that I believe something is wrong with the core saidit formula. It bills itself as one thing, but it no longer actively holds itself to that standard. It's a fact that the front page is clogged with trash almost every day, that users like endlesssunflowers demonstrate a larger trend. A post doesn't have to be good or bad, just controversial enough to get views and push out actual content. I think this is a serious issue that should be addressed, as a site like saidit is only as good as its content. And I don't think this is just my opinion. We've been losing users for months now, as the reddit banwaves are driving people to make new reddit alternatives. It's not concern-trolling if there's genuine cause for concern, and indeed, I made this post after looking at the numbers and wondering to myself why saidit is being passed up by these new competitors. Blocking users would just be turning away from the problem, since there's no regular moderation, this site only works if users can see bad content/pyramid violations and speak up against it via comments.

Jesus 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I believe something is wrong with the core saidit formula.

And what is that?

Users are eventually banned if they post low tier posts in every single comment. I have been here since the beginning. You can report users and M7 will look it over.

It's up to you to uphold the pyramid of debate!

a fact that the front page is clogged with trash almost every day, that users like endlesssunflowers demonstrate a larger trend. A post doesn't have to be good or bad, just controversial enough to get views and push out actual content.

I agree, much of it is bias for Trump. Which is fine, rather it seems to be the titles which are sensationalized. It's ridiculous, that is why I use subscription and friends to see good posts.

Why dontou continue to pinpoint Endless summers, one of the only left-leaning poster it seems on the frontpage?

There is, again, a report option.

bobbobbybob 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

i learnt to avoid that clickbait nonsense. life improved

Nemesis[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun 4 years ago

I point out endless precisely because he demonstrates that what you say about m7 enforcement is just wrong. I've watched this account post low tier daily for a year and nothing happens. I think what you wrote SHOULD be the policy, but right now it isn't enforceable, because M7 most of the time is busy running the site, he can't be patrolling the mounds of shitposts that roll in every day. In most reddit-like sites that's the role of the subsaidit-level mods, to prune spam and shitposts. What I'm pointing out is that a lot of the default subs don't have active mods, so low quality posting is rampant and chokes the feed of the average user.
I honestly don't have anything against endlesssummers personally, and I don't care if he's right or left. He's just the poster boy, in my opinion, of the worst element of saidit, people that spam and abandon low quality posts 24/7.

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I like most posts by Endless.

I agree, M7 is overburdened and won't delegate, but it's his site and all of that shit he's carrying is his choice. If only there was a forum where he could find help. /s

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Agreed. Stop relying on some "police" to do what we as a community should be doing: always actively patrolling ourselves.

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

A++

The block function is shit as is. It needs to indicate to the blocked user that they are blocked - and then it might be worth having.

SaidOverRed 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I agree with this. Transparency is a good thing. It's a nice way to sanity check that one is not being toooooo much of an a-hole on the internet.

magnora7 17 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 5 fun18 insightful - 6 fun 4 years ago

Thanks for the suggestions. I need a programmer to help do any solutions because I am basically doing this whole site on my own now. D3rr will help restart if the site goes down, but it appears he's done programming this site, and he quit being a content admin over a year ago.

Limit link posts per day, nobody needs to make 10 link posts unless they're kharma farming. If these people had 3 a day, they would pick quality links, and actually stick around in comments to defend the content and explain why they felt like sharing it with everyone else.

I think that's a good idea, I'd support that. Although any troll will just make 10 alternate accounts to bypass this, let's be real.

It's too much to expect you and d3rr to wade through acres of shit and sift out diamonds while simultaneously working to maintain and improve the site.

Thanks, and d3rr doesn't help with the content administration, he does backend and technical stuff on occasion, so the content administration is really just all falling 100% on my shoulders. I need help, but no one wants to actually put in the effort to help, it seems. Vantafount is the only one other than d3rr who has really stepped up to help, rather than just complain, and has actually taken things off of my plate instead of putting more things on it.

I want the site to be better, but I simply cannot do it alone, and I don't have anyone to help me build new features anymore, so I'm basically overloaded and getting paid nothing for 3 years now... I'm doing my best, but what we've got now is about as good as it's going to get unless someone actually wants to put in the time and effort to help improve the site through programming.

I've also been thinking about just leaving saidit like it is, and launching some more sites, one focused on no politics with admins who enforce that, and maybe another focused entirely on the top of the pyramid of debate (rather than being a sort of catch-all like saidit has become). I do think one of the problems of saidit is that it's trying to be a high-quality "pyramid of debate" place while simultaneously trying to be a reddit catch-all replacement. These two goals were not conflicting when saidit was small, but now that we're established, these two goals are constantly at odds with each other. I've long believed the best way to have the most free speech is to have multiple sites each with different rules, so I think that may be the direction I will try and take things, and start a network of saidit-related sites, each with different goals and rules. I can seek out people who have proven themselves on saidit, to be the new admins of these new sites. A big part of the reason I don't enforce the pyramid of debate harshly on saidit is because we're trying to be a catch-all at the same time and help out free speech. But a new site that is pyramid of debate focused, wouldn't have this restriction, so we could really push it hard and have a high-quality place.

Anyway, that's how things look from where I'm sitting. I'm trying my best, but there's just too much to do, and I simply cannot do it alone as I'm already overloaded just keeping this thing afloat, much less building new features. And I'm doing this all for free 24/7 for literally years now, simply because I believe in free speech and the power of alternatives. Realistically if we want to see saidit improve beyond where it is, someone is going to have to step up to program (it's python/postgresql), or to pay for a programmer to help who is actually capable (maybe from fiverr or something). Or we will launch the partner sites with different rules. Those are the long-term ways forward that I can see.

Thanks for discussing this and bringing it up, I'm glad people care enough to want things to improve.

[deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

I'll help you launch sister sites, and if there's a clear desire by this userbase for new features, I'll most likely help with those as well. But we've got to take a step back- this post isn't about technical features, and neither is this finding of yours which I agree with 100%:

I do think one of the problems of saidit is that it's trying to be a high-quality "pyramid of debate" place while simultaneously trying to be a reddit catch-all replacement. These two goals were not conflicting when saidit was small, but now that we're established, these two goals are constantly at odds with each other.

This conflict and its repercussions led me to stop being admin, and has soured many others. Their expectations of the site didn't match reality and that's 100% a saidit problem for not clearly communicating.

We've got years of "might help" saidit features lined up, but after doing that for years only to get our clocks cleaned by ruqqus, it begs the question of why are we here and what is the point. If there's no product market fit and this site doesn't make us happy/fulfilled, then it's time to reevaluate.

magnora7 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it. I strongly think I'll be launching a couple more sites over the next few months.

Their expectations of the site didn't match reality and that's 100% a saidit problem for not clearly communicating.

I agree expectations didn't match reality. I don't think it was a problem of communication though, I think it was a problem of having opposing goals that were logically conflicting at the root.

Saidit tried to be both the catch-all reddit alternative, and also the higher-quality place that wasn't voat. And these conflicting goals worked for a while but it led to this thing where some see saidit as purely the former, and some see it as purely the latter. And so some people's expectations were broken when I leave up things that go against the pyramid of debate, and other people who see it as a purely free-speech site have their expectations broken when I remove things that go against the pyramid of debate. So it's like two separate, mutually-exclusive visions trying to happen at once.

I tried my best to find a happy medium between those two goals, which I long believed was possible, but it ended up kind of just causing the site to suck at both things. The free speech people are worried stuff will be removed, and the pyramid of debate people are worried that the site culture is going bad. And what sucks is they're both right. So instead of succeeding at finding a happy medium, I think what happened was saidit kind of half-failed and half-succeeded at both goals.

So I think I have to make sites more catered to each goal individually. And if you want to run the free-speech-focused site, I'd be glad to get out of your way and let you run it. I'm going to make a new site focused hardcore on the pyramid of debate to go strictly for high-quality discussion. And another site that is "no politics" since I see that requested a ton.

I'm honestly still confused about why ruqqus blew up so quick after it launched. But their alexa rank is doing the same thing as ours right now, we're really peers in the same boat, at about the same level. I do think they paid for reddit advertising though, they generated word of mouth in a way I was never able to despite my best efforts. Maybe the flashy new site design helps too. Maybe they happened to have better timing of their launch. I don't know, honestly. But if we step back and reevaluate like you suggest, I think making more sites with more focused goals on each site seems to be a clear way forward, and I think would probably re-invigorate public interest in the saidit software project as well.

Jesus 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Ruqqus was able to piggyback off of the censorship of "conservatives." They sold tea-shirts and were all over 4chan and other prominent sites.

Here's one of the founders of ruqqus LLC:

https://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C4E03AQERJ3NdU6XDcg/profile-displayphoto-shrink_200_200/0?e=1609977600&v=beta&t=JwroSKk1z_yiib7bm9tZgTwtUXwNH8yenQE6HHfGU9M

He has decent resume. His favorite journalist is Sargon of Akkad aka Sargon of Mossad and he told a user I enjoyed to go back to 1940's Germany when he brought up the disproportionate ratio of wealthy Jews controlling US corporate media. Which is, one doesn't have to put any kind of spin on it, a statistical fact. I guess pointing this fact out means we should go back to Germany when the allies destroyed the country, is his take, for what? Pointing this fact out?

Seems like in a few years that place will sell-out. That's what my intuition tells me. Bitchute, Zionist owned, did the exact same crap. Theu pretended they were pro-free speech and started deleting users who exposed governmwnt psyops and questioned Zionism, and then promoted Zionists to the fromt page.

Anyway, they are all pro-Trump and partisan. There's 7 posts in total that mention Zionism, the highest upvoted post is 7 upvotes, all the rest are neutral or down-voted. Many users are censored for criticizing Judaism and Israel in the context of Judaism.

One poster wrote:

The developers were pretty open about the fact they were associated with the ADL until this June - it's why people come here to shout racial slurs; but yes, they are almost certainly compiling data on each of us.

So, if they are conntected to the ADL in some way, like 4chan is, then it's just another honeypot site.

By the way, if I could code, I would love to work on this site. But I can't code. What I would say is that when s user makes a new account, most people won't open up the jpg pyramid of debate. It has to be a pop-up or something right in the new users face.

[deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I'm honestly still confused about why ruqqus blew up so quick after it launched

I think it's because they claimed a simple free speech strategy from the get go which attracted a certain reddit crowd which led to marketing success, like the /r/watchredditdie endorsement. They already had a bunch of Trump train followers too from the /r/the_donald ban or whatever that sub was called. Yeah the design probably helped a bit too. How it won't end up exactly like Voat or Voat-light, I don't think they have an answer to and it is likely inevitable. Free speech/anti-censorship/privacy are certainly huge societal issues right now too.

About their rank, try comparing US vs. US. Also seeing India as our top country is weird, what if half of our traffic is from a private streaming sub or something?

And if you want to run the free-speech-focused site, I'd be glad to get out of your way and let you run it

I might be into that. Competing with Voat and Ruqqus and fighting those DMCA wars is a lot of work though. Maybe saidit.net should become this new hardcore pyramid of debate site? You'd have the pyramid fans on board already. I'm hesitant to admin rather than code. Maybe there's room for a full frontal conspiracy focused site with free speech? Something like that would be exciting. I do see lots of people separating far right content from conspiracy content in their critiques of most of these alternatives.

and I think would probably re-invigorate public interest in the saidit software project as well

Yes, that would be amazing. It's been rough with just you and me and 10 commits or so from outsiders. And you know I trip out about the obsolescence factor too.

magnora7 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I think it's because they claimed a simple free speech strategy from the get go which attracted a certain reddit crowd which led to marketing success

I wonder though because many other sites did the exact same strategy and didn't catch on like ruqqus did. Like poal, phucks, and notabug. Not sure what set ruqqus apart from all of those. Saidit had a core initial audience from /r/conspiracy and /r/C_S_T from my articles, but I don't know where the core audience came from for ruqqus and how they were so unified and good at getting the word out.

How it won't end up exactly like Voat or Voat-light, I don't think they have an answer to and it is likely inevitable.

I agree, ruqqus is following the same cultural evolutionary arc that voat did. I think eventually they'll culturally settle somewhere between saidit and voat, and their traffic will slowly drop like poal's did.

Maybe saidit.net should become this new hardcore pyramid of debate site?

From where I'm sitting, I think trying to make a significant change to saidit culture at this point would not go over well and would also be an unnecessary uphill battle. Making a new site would piss off no one, but changing saidit significantly like that would piss off half our userbase. So expanding to new sites seems like the wiser choice, as far as I can see

About their rank, try comparing US vs. US. Also seeing India as our top country is weird, what if half of our traffic is from a private streaming sub or something?

That is strange... could be watchpeopledie, or gendercritical, or something? Or maybe just lots of people run vpns that go through india? Hired shill groups from india? The mma fights streaming people? Maybe cricket streaming, I used to see that sometimes on saidit. No idea tbh.

Maybe there's room for a full frontal conspiracy focused site with free speech? Something like that would be exciting.

I think that's a perfect angle for the free speech site! I love it. I agree there is demand for this. And you don't have to necessarily admin, you can just choose the people to appoint to do the admin work. You can pick them from saidit, and use their post history to vet their intentions. And on a new site, the stakes are lower if one admin goes off the rails, so you can try new admins out without too much risk. So you can be an admin manager rather than an admin. Once you set everything up and the admins are vetted and know what to do, then you could just step back and let it run and not have to do any work at all.

That's my plan with the other sites too. I want to become more of an admin manager, rather than do admin janitor work myself all the time. But this requires clearly-defined rules for the content admins, which is another reason new websites with narrowly-defined focuses would be very useful.

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JasonCarswellMental Orgy 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Time to delegate. Foster some democratic processes to build a council that would serve SaidIt's interests that you would oversee. (Maybe pick a temporary first bootstrap council that would then discuss how all the other councils should be elected or selected, rules, policies, evolution processes, etc - and write it all down for future reference.) Have them discuss issues you or they have, let them come up with some recommendations, and they you would get to veto or pass them into being or just put them on a shelf to mull over.

You could even have them come up with ideas for your next sites and ways to improve them. I for one would love to see a topically categorized site - weather it's with topical subs only or with just one sub and a bunch of metatags - a fantastic research tool.

Also, IMO long overdue, it might be time to add a "donate" above or below "search". Not big and in your face, but at least always present there to remind people. Out of sight out of mind. There's no shame in covering costs and it's not begging when you provide the service first for free. Plus it clarifies your model (ie. not ads) to nullify suspicions or theories. The "donate" could link to the options as well as a road map and code bounties for tasks.

Your cause is noble and efforts not in vain.

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[deleted] 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun 4 years ago

I've blocked that user a long time ago. The thing is, that's really the best way to manage such people. Ignore them entirely. I've been having a very different experience since I did so, although the activity is much less. I fear it's as expected, where a few keyboard warriors with no jobs end up dictating the participation on the platform, driving anyone else who might want to discuss something fruitful away.

And, of course, since I don't really find the central premise of the website being enforced at all, my own desire to participate is effectively nil. Why bother, there are 50 other platforms identical without any interest in trying to promote better discussion. If that central point isn't so enforced here, there goes any reason to do so.

Zapped 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

It would be easy for me to read this post and think "what a whiner". But you are experessing what a lot of us are feeling. Saidit was born from the purge of mainly political free speech at Reddit, so political speech is going to dominate here. I would also like to see a site like Reddit with a variety of interests and groups, but there is still Reddit for a lot of those non-political interests that keeps people from looking or migrating elsewhere. A quick look at your recent comment history shows a heavy slant towards politics. Maybe you just don't want to hear points of view other than what you have already settled decided you like. (Me neither, since I'm never wrong.)

If I can throw in my 2 cents, I have noticed that topics stay at the top for days and days, even after comments have slowed down. Other sites have a much quicker rotation. I don't know what the correct answer is on this one, but it seems like this site is stale conpared to others.

I have to defend u/endlesssunflowers on this one. I disagree with their political stance, but they are one of the few people that make regular contributions as posters. Plus, they post in areas besides politics.

Chipit 9 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 6 fun 4 years ago

The pyramid of debate worked for a while, but it's fallen by the wayside as new users have never heard of it and moderators never remove content that violates it.

I click report all the time and nothing ever happens.

DoubleReverse 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Pyramid of debate? Aren't you the guy who responded to my point about corporate corruption by insisting that I must hate the working class? Ad hominem attacks are like the very bottom of the pyramid.

Jesus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Trust me, Chipit is cunning.

DoubleReverse 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

If that was the case you'd think he would be able to come up with a meaningful response.

[deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

His common insult is "tard" of some kind. Truly meaningful.

bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Ah, the payoff to this thread was worth it.

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Jesus 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Says the user who called me mentally ill, crazy and that I should be on meds.

bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

"The" user? I'm pretty sure that lots of us have said that to you at one stage or another

SaidOverRed 7 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 7 fun 4 years ago

I agree with this fully and I like your incremental solutions. As I posted ( https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/6esq/pyramid_of_debate_vs_echo_chamber_subs/ ) on the subsaidit about saidit, there needs to be much more emphasis on the core principle of the pyramid of debate. Please see if you like my incremental solutions.

Unfortunately I had to block the mod of one of the largest factions because her one-sided, rage-filled insults simply wouldn't stop. Ironic.

Nemesis[S] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

I share your concerns, I think until they can find a way to actively monitor content it's going to be super inconsistent. I think a decision needs to be made: is the default, non-private subs a total free-speech zone, or is there a standard of post quality (pyramid). Until then you're going to have the dissatisfaction you see in these comments and elsewhere, because it's vague. Some people will think any implementation of a standard is censorship, other people will be made that people can shit out ridiculous and spurious arguments until the smart people in the thread are too exhausted to continue. I leadership should decide one way or the other, then we'll all know and can shut up.
As an aside, could you sum up or link to your specific solutions? All the dueling with those feminists in the comments of your post makes it hard to track them down.

Jesus 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

Just hire Hasbara for the job?

SaidOverRed 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

There are two, at the end of the OP. I thought of a third as a late, bottom reply: 1) Subs that actively go against the pyramid of debate should have a banner at the top that this is an Echo Chamber sub. 2) Such echo chamber subs should be saidit.net/ec/ rather than saidit.net/s/ so it is obvious from links before clicking 3) Rules bars should be obvious and specific enough to account for reasons to ban most of their bans. See the linked example https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/6esq/pyramid_of_debate_vs_echo_chamber_subs/ovob

EndlessSunflowers 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

Hahahaahahahah

"our hero /u/endlesssunflowers, a smug fedora-tier attack on a strawman, not responding to any of the 95 comments, just musing to himself about "easily manipulated minds". 3 minutes later he's moved on, posting a random picture of Ireland. What happens to all these users actually putting effort into trying to engage with the post? When this happens everyday, they get demoralized, they think "why am I wasting my time trying to have elevated discussion here?". This is the new reality of saidit."

EndlessSunflowers 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

Deep Analysis. You've spent a lot of time worrying about me, I'm flattered : )

Nemesis[S] 15 insightful - 5 fun15 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

And I'm flattered by your response, truly. This is the first time I've seen you respond to someone else on a discussion-centric site, and this is also the first time I've seen you comment more than once on the same thread

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flugegeheimen 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

We need actual mods who can work to actually implement this dream of a "pyramid of debate" centered site.

That's not going to happen. The "internet janitor with a proud salary of $0" job will never attract a noticeable amount of normal well-adjusted people for a noticeable amount of time. I think everyone understands who and why ends as mods usually. I don't think there needs to be a push for them to do a less relaxed policing otherwise you are ending with s/fascism example where a mod, whose most intellectual contribution to any discussion is "ok libtard" bans people for "Dragging down discussion on Pyramid Of Debate". In other words you are ending back at reddit with a slightly different color theme.

I agree with your general notion about quality content but magic impartial mods won't appear out of thin air and won't curate it to your standards. The best you can reliably count for is some ex-redditor with reddit mentality. Fortunately magnora gave you a great tool to do it yourself, which is a "block user" link under each comment and post.

This site has been hemorrhaging users the last few months, people are leaving. Why? Because this content is all there is now, schizoposting and bad memes.

I disagree. This is a normal life cycle of a reddit clone: reddit reaches a new peak of retardation and spits out a group of refugees, they try all alternatives they can find (boosting their population for a while), eventually settle on one or return to reddit. I don't think something on saidit affected it.

Jesus 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Agreed!

Stankmango 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun 4 years ago

I'd be on board with a submission limit. Although 80% of my posts are music links confined to their relative subsaidits.

Now, I'm definitely not advocating for downvotes in any way, shape or form, but I used to be a regular poster on cookdandbombd and their solution to karma was to have one positive upvote and one negative downvote every 24 hours and if you had to submit them you had to personally message the user and give them the reason why you liked/disliked their post. It was an effective system simply because people don't want to take the stand and give their reasons why. That's why a voting system only works fairly if it's not anonymous.

I'm not suggesting that but it might be one of the only ways to puncture the thickening numbness of /u/endlesssunflowers. Not that I have a problem with the dude. The Law of averages dictates that he's going to post some quality content from time to time.

Jesus 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Nah, I don't mind endlesssunflowers.

Disliking will never happen here.

Stankmango 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

I think I'm the wrong guy you responded to. Nothing suggested vitriol towards the guy in my post. Merely a suggestion with him as an example.

Jesus 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Sorry, yes, it was to another user.

[deleted] 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

I see you're just against memes and conspiracy theories, there's a concerted effort right now to censor the internet of these because bots have a hard time recognizing them.

Nemesis[S] 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

Memes vary in quality and effort, and I have no problem with conspiracy posts if they're well put together and thought out. My war here isn't against two types of content that make up a huge chunk of the internet, but rather that the content pipeline gets clogged up with low quality material. Besides, bots have shown on reddit and elsewhere that they have no problem sliding or mass voting all sorts of content, not just text posts and sponsored NWO-approved content.

[deleted] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun 4 years ago

[deleted]

magnora7 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun 4 years ago

I care a lot. The problem is I only have so many hours in a day, and I also have to make an income to survive outside this site (because this site sure as heck isn't paying the bills).

I've done literally thousands of hours of work for free over the last 3 years. The problem is that no one else cares as much as me.

sproketboy 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Can't you get some revenue from ad networks? Or setup a GoFundMe or similar?

magnora7 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

Saidit doesn't have ads and only works on donations, and that's part of our strategy to avoid creating bias and bad incentives. I've thought about turning ads on, but I decided it's not worth the headache and I don't want to go against my word regarding ads. (I also do not want to deal with notifications about "our advertisers don't like this type of content, can you please minimize it on your platform" and that type of thing for a few hundred dollars a month at most)

We have a patreon and cryptocurrency donation options if people want to help financially. https://www.patreon.com/SaidIt

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/jf/cryptocurrency_support_for_saiditnet/

If I get enough I can hire a programmer to accomplish some projects that would help, but it's going to take a couple hundred dollars to get one capable enough, probably.

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

What priority projects do you have in mind? Have you asked the masses what their priorities are? I'd wager that if you found where they overlap you could do a post or few on the various goals to raise a code bounty to get er done.

IMO, you'd do well to do feature a new goal on the regular. (ie. weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, quarterly) By engaging the masses they will not only feel like they have a stake in things, they'll also feel a responsibility when contributing - and unlike voting, they'd actually see results. We all want to help you and SaidIt's success. Give them/us a voice by asking how we could help improve SaidIt and you be the decider (but better than Bush Jr.).

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WarmPotato 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

:O

If you asked for donations I would have donated :O

Why not have a gold system like Reddit? Now I wanna donate! :D

magnora7 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

If you'd like to donate, we'd love your help!

https://www.patreon.com/SaidIt

https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/jf/cryptocurrency_support_for_saiditnet/

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

There's a "donate" at the bottom of every page. IMO there should also be one directly above or below the "search".

MadLass 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

I think this has a lot of merit. Id love to participate in saidit more but it just isnt so inviting. It has gotten a little better since the blame the Jews sub left at least.

[deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

people are leaving. Why? Because this content is all there is now, schizoposting and bad memes.

The bad memes would drowned out if there were more quality posts being submitted. Be the change you want to see.

Chipit 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

I submit stuff all the time and 2/3 sits at one vote (mine) and never moves. It disappears without a trace.

jet199Instigatrix 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

Then possibly the problem is people aren't voting enough when lurking for the stuff they do want to see.

Possibility people should consider voting insightful for stuff which they don't necessarily agree with but is interesting or well argued rather than using that function as an ideology adherence/popularity indicator.

Nemesis[S] 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

It's funny, I would actually hold you up as an example of what a "prolific user" should be, thank you for swinging by. I don't necessarily object to people posting a lot, but rather that most people that post a lot put no effort into their posting, and are playing a numbers game to get attention. When I look at your posts, your titles have your actual opinion and thoughts, you show up in comments and discuss, and the articles/videos are interesting. I share your frustration that a good article will have to get lucky to be seen by casual users, because instead some quote pic just controversial enough to get votes will consume the attention of people hanging around new.

SaidOverRed 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

This is what happens when too much 'block user' button is invoked by too many people. I'm not saying don't fling mud on people. You've flung it on me, and I've flung some back.

But you also might say something insightful. I've given you tons of karma. So a block would deprive me of potentially valuable posts later. I'm not sure where I was going with this.

Algebruh 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun 4 years ago

I think limiting the amount of times someone can link is a good idea. I don't know if it's gotten worse in the short time since I've signed up(election year, entirely possible) or if I've just gotten familiar enough with the site to notice it. I've been blocking/reporting accounts that post nonsense links to entirely unrelated boards. When someone is posting a link to a shoe website on a book/Linux board while having no comments I assume they're a bot. Limiting post probably won't do shit for bots but it'll cut down on the accounts that have been spamming links to porn gifs.

bobbobbybob 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

/u/magnora7

This has spurred me to an idea. Can we limit cross-posting? I've no problem with random stuff, I love it, but the same thing posted in 2 or more subs is really irritating to scan through. Perhaps make people really think about where they post their links?

magnora7 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Yeah that's a good idea. I'd like to limit it to 2 or 3 max. But the ultimate would be to have all crossposts automatically combined in to one meta-post with all the comments from the various subs merged.

The limit project would probably be a 5-10 hour project. The combining meta-post feature would probably be a 50 hour project. I wish I had a programmer who knew python and postgresql to help build new features

[deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Agree. The website isn't large enough to warrant that. /u/JasonCarswell

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I'd prefer to just have one post with one set of comments that shows up in the topical subs or just use metatags.

The subs are random chaos now because M7D3 did nothing about it years ago, so trying to actually organize this site is long past being practical for topical subs, categorizing, classifications, metatags, etc. That's not on me.

Everyone uses SaidIt differently. I try to build topical subs worth researching in.

zyxzevn🐈‍⬛ 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

I think that real discussions are impossible if the opinions are too different.
For example, socialism and capitalism are based upon our experiences with it, which are very different per country.
The US is very anti-socialism, while the rest of the world enjoys decent and cheap healthcare (up to 10x cheaper). In the US most tax money seems to go to the military for the Eternal War.

And talking about covid-19 is very different per person and these ideas can be pretty extreme if the person is in fear. This can be fear of a virus. But also fear for a police state (UK/Australia). Fear makes people think in absolutes.

Politics is always about conspiracies, but we often pretend that they don't exist.

Quality

Bringing far more quality is difficult.
Official news sites are just brain-less propaganda.
But are often presented as "trusted sources", by their financiers.
The same is with a lot of the science journals, who have excluded themselves from any criticism.
Especially with political related topics.

The reason I moved away from reddit is because I could not criticize any models in science.
While understanding fair criticism is the best way to progress in science.
To understand the criticism you already need to be well educated in the topic.

Yet the more I investigate the more difficult parts of a specialized area in science,
the more I see that people are suffering from the impostor-syndrome.
Which means that they pretend to know it all, because everyone else does. And if they get caught they may lose their (top) position. Which means that they have to avoid criticism.

The same is probably true with a lot of the politicians.

Solution?

I have not seen the video about the reptilians here.
But I would suggest for moderators to be able to MOVE content to a different sub.
But there is also low-quality content from people that want to promote their blog. This is not for karma, but for clicks or links.
I see no problem in removing them.

THE POST LIMIT

The limit seems good, but there should be a difference between insightful and fun posts.
And posts that you put in your sub to keep it alive.
I think that it is very good for a site, and for the mental health of people, to have fun posts.
This requires the submitter to mark a post as EITHER FUN OR INSIGHTFUL

So:
3 insightful posts anywhere
+ 3 fun posts anywhere
+ 3 posts in your subs (for moderator or approved submitter).

If you want to post more you can combine it in a text post (or add it in a reply to a related post).

Proposal posted in /IdeasForSaidit

(edit: corrected style/grammer)

send_nasty_stuff 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Front-page you see this delightful post. 14-11 votes, 96 comments mostly pointing out that it's a shit quote, a one sentence claim by Einstein, and one single garbled comment from OP, our hero /u/endlesssunflowers, a smug fedora-tier attack on a strawman, not responding to any of the 95 comments

This is called thread abandonment and I ban it on my sub(s). If you want a good site all the power needs to be in good moderation and minimal interference from admin. If there's minimal interference from admin users will naturally gravitate to well moderated subs. That the direction reddit was on from 2012-2016 but they took a hardcore departure when Trump got elected.

We need actual mods who can work to actually implement this dream of a "pyramid of debate" centered site.

It's impossible. A pyramid of debate is to open to interpretation and manipulation. It was a good starter idea but the admin on saidit needs to start listening more to user suggestion or the site will stagnate and die.

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Depends. Everyone uses SaidIt in a different way.

Some people think of subs as a community, others as a topic, and others as a place to mod-squat, and others as random noise. Personally, I think of SaidIt.net as the only community.

I think the Pyramid Of Debate is solid, but needs many many examples to cite from (like law), so that when it's actually enforced it can be compared to past examples and justified. Actually enforcing the POD is another matter all together and requires some consistency.

SaidOverRed 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Well organized, short examples. So a mod and easily lookup or a user can speed read to get the idea.

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Indeed! Short and organized. I hadn't even considered that far ahead.

The SaidIt wikis have been terribly under utilized, IMO.

SaidOverRed 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I think it's all about reactions. I troll super hard on reddit, but only because I think they deserve it. It's kind of refreshing to come back to saidit and be serious.

wendolynne 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

Human nature and the two-party system conspire to limit intelligent discussion. Intelligent discussion on the internet is easier if the topic is car repair or cooking - easier for the mods to recognize off-topic posts, and far less knee-jerk hatred. Yet the effort is admirable and necessary.

Jesus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

/u/aureus; why pick him?

Nemesis[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I don't always agree with him, but he puts an incredible amount of effort and energy into his posts and ideas, and his arguments are rock solid, always good about backing up claims with sources if people ask, just the first name that came to mind of a great user

Aureus 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Hey, thanks for mentioning me. I totally agree with your post btw. It's a shame it's not getting the appreciation it deserves.

I haven't been active on this site for some time for exactly the reasons you describe. The only advantage a site like this could have over others is quality discussion and content, but very few seem interested in posting that. The majority of content is recycled political news. The number of users interested in quality discussion is so small that it would almost be more efficient to make a private IRC channel or Element channel or something.

I'm not sure how to fix the issues you bring up. I totally agree with limiting link posts though. I'm open to discuss any of this if you're interested.

Jesus 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

Zionism insightful upvote; anti-Zionism fun downvote.

IRONICALLY_A_NAZI 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Shill slide accounts are real

[deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

[deleted]

Aureus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

Very well said.

[deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

You never understood stochastic. And see: This is why i can block you completely off.

This is not your cup of tea. And i shouldn't be like this. Because complaining around a free thing was never mine, but it obviously isn't yours also.

Cognitive dissonance does hit you hard, so get back to Fuckit.

Go back to your black momma.

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun 4 years ago

Perhaps a problem is that lurkers/readers don't vote.

SaidOverRed 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun 4 years ago

No. Don't blame the users. The more lurkers the better. Not everyone has time to make accounts or play with each new site's hoops.

JasonCarswellMental Orgy 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun 4 years ago

I agree, don't blame users. If they don't vote then it's obvious they don't want to influence or care to influence the flow of information. But we could try to remind or motivate (not blame) them to be more selective and/or active in choosing better content to support.