all 5 comments

[–]anderssvedaval 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I kind of agree with what they say, but I question their intentions. It feels virtue signal-ish to me, but that could be my bias (probably is my own bias).

But dam, I can't even imagine a solution to the Israel-Palestine dilemma. It seems so tangled up, and both sides are riled up for the last half century so much that I genuinely don't see a peaceful way out.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah virtue signal-ish is a good way to put it. I get the same feelings, but I used to root for these people too before the DNC debacle in 2016. Now I wonder if they're simply good at signalling. Probably a little of that, but they're probably also genuine too.

As far as the Israel-Palestine problem, I see an obvious solution. Israel needs to respect the 1949 borders and stay within their borders! If they stopped building settlements, and stopped expanding the wall buffer zone in to gaza, and stopped trying to take over palestine, then the palestinians might be able to relax and not have to defend themselves! Most deaths happen on the palestine side of the border, because Israel is the aggressor. They kill 10x as many people as Palestine does every time they clash.

If Israel would just respect the borders and have a true 2-state solution where Palestine is not constantly being invaded, then peace could begin to emerge. But Israel is like a dog with a bone and refuses to stop building settlements and trying to take land, especially Jerusalem and Mt. Zion. They refuse to quit until they have those, it seems. If they would just accept the existing borders, the conflict would basically be over. Israel has all the power here, yet they keep acting like Palestine is the aggressor to keep up pretenses for their invasions.

[–]anderssvedaval 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's the thing. I have Israeli friends, male and female. They like video games. They smoke weed. They're lazy, docile, socially insecure, very chilled, very harmless people, just like my other friends. But when it comes to Palestine, it's not even a question. It BELONGS to Israel. Like, it's not even an argument. Like, to them, the concept of this is Palestine...and this is Israel, does not friggin exist!

So, from this small, anecdotal, close-to-home insight that I have into the psyche of Israeli's, my problem is, how in the hell are we ever going to convince the whole of Israel (especially the big boys at the top) to stop ruining the party? Know what I mean?

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree, I don't think Israelis are bad people. They just support bad policy, because they've been convinced it's the morally correct thing to do.

It boils down to nationalism, and in this case specifically Zionism. Which are just forms of tribalism.

The gambit is "You believe x y and z, or you're not on our team." And you just repeat this for every hour of every day of their life through tv, radio, magazines, and movies. And then even the culture itself takes on these values, your mom and dad believe these things, your grandparents believe these things...

Soon you are faced with 'you believe these things, or you don't fit in with the group'. It's tribalism, at the core. Required beliefs to belong to a group, beliefs that are easy to hold (because they don't affect you) and that's it. It all boils down to social pressure, and most of the social pressure is created through the media.

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves in to. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. You know?

The only thing to do is lay out true info as best you can, and let the thirsty horses drink and ignore the rest. You cannot change anyone's mind, they have to change it themselves. You can only create the conditions that make it easier for that to occur and hope for the best. You can plant the seeds and create good conditions, but you cannot force the plant to grow.

Many people will live their whole lives and die believing propagandistic falsehoods. It's just something we have to accept about this world. We just have to do our best given what we have, and gently create the mental, emotional, and cultural room for those ideas to exist.

It's a good way to pass the time, anyway

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm still pissed about Warren and Sanders giving the DNC rigging a free pass, but at least they're being vocal about this issue, even if it is just words. Even just saying something against Israel is probably politically risky at this point. But then again they could exist simply to make the left appear anti-war when in practice it's functionally not. Controlled opposition.

Either way, I agree with their statements here. Israel needs to stop shooting and killing nonviolent Palestinian protesters, as they've done more than a dozen times this week alone