BLM Leftists Attack Rand Paul And Brandon Straka Outside RNC, This Must Stop, Democrats Have Failed

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[–]AsInBeer 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

1) I asked for an example. You replied with "are you joking??" then reasserted your belief.

2) It's not me that's 180ed . It's the progressives who have 180ed. I am left standing where I always was.

2a) this....

"And I still hold that you were never a progressive. A progressive cannot switch to authoritarianism so easily, and further would not do so simply because they were unhappy with their "team mates"--it's not about winning, it's about principles."

...is the very definition of no true scotsman fallacy:

He cannot be a True Scotsman because a True Scotsman would never X.

I cannot be a True Progressive because a True Progressive would never X.

[–]Klondike 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

1) Because it's so ridiculous? It's not like Trump claims to be libertarian.

2) Umm..no? What are you even talking about.

2a) Lol, I think you are misunderstanding the Scotsman. A more equivalent analogy would be:

You: "I used to be a Scotsman, but then I realized I was actually Welsh."

Me: "Then you weren't a Scotsman."

Anyway, this has gone completely off the rails so I'm thinking you're just trolling. Goodbye.

[–]AsInBeer 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

This is what the Left is and why I left the Left. You refuse to engage in any substantive way. You substitute broad accusations and name calling when anyone tries to pin you down to specifics. You do this because you know you can't actually carry an argument.

You deny obvious reality. You literally used the No True Scotsman argument fallacy- word for word with the simplest substitution possible- and when it was pointed out you did that, you just deny it, that's all.

It's a refusal to engage with reality. Like Tom Wheeler in Portland, you refuse to see the reality which is going to kill you. Like NBC News, you deliberately and calculatingly deny and distort things you know are true.

Finally, into the mix, you , like all Leftists, accuse your opponent of doing exactly what it is you're doing and being exactly what it is you are, a cultist. A person living through a psychotic break with reality, projecting his character flaws and crimes onto the people around him, who are only trying to point out to him what he's doing.

Never say no one ever spoke the frank truth about you to you.

[–]Klondike 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

1) Again, the Left isn't a team, this isn't fucking sports. And I'm not giving you specifics because I've played this game before. You'll latch onto some minor inaccuracy in what I say and claim it invalidates the broader argument and shift the goalposts. I told you, read the report and try to argue against it directly; that might actually be impressive.

And before you try to say that you've actually been arguing in good faith, note that you asked me for the claims of the Mueller Report, and then later admitted to already knowing what they were! You are just playing games and being dishonest. Surprise fucking surprise.

2) Dude, again, that's not how the No True Scotsman fallacy works. It would be one thing if I said "you can't actually be a progressive because you don't support gun control" or some other detail of policy or positions. But the Venn diagram of progressive ideas and Trumpism is pretty much two separate circles. But you claim to not have changed and that the Left has moved around you? No, you just never knew what the ideology was about in the first place, and with each post you make that more obvious.

3) Ah, we've reached the "accusal of projection" part of the script. You deviated quite a bit at the beginning, and I thought maybe this conversation might actually go somewhere! But alas, now we're right back on track. Good day.

[–]AsInBeer 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You'll latch onto some minor inaccuracy in what I say and claim it invalidates the broader argument and shift the goalposts

Try me. Think I haven't had the same experience? But I'm still in the ring, aren't I? I'm still keeping the channels of communication open with people I know disagree vehemently with me, aren't I? Why am I doing that. Because I have a civic responsibility to do it. Because it's now basically my second job but my first responsibility. Because what happens after people stop trying to find common ground and the mutual respect that comes with it is the worst thing in the universe. Because we have to try and keep trying.

But the Venn diagram of progressive ideas and Trumpism is pretty much two separate circles.

You are aware of the walkaway movement, right? I mean, you know that those people disagree with you too. Are they all trolls? Is it a conspiracy.

I walked away from the illiberal Left when I saw and heard with my own eyes who they were and what they believed.

Trump is colorblind , and so am I. Proudly colorblind. Trump believes in the dignity of individual effort and work and so do I. Trump believes that America should provide opportunities for her own people first because we will only destroy ourselves and not help the world a bit by infinitely outsourcing our jobs to nations without environmental or labor laws.

You only destroy opportunities for millions of Black people by importing unlimited people from 3rd world nations to do medium skilled work Black people could have made careers of. Roofing, landscaping, builders, welders, cooks, blue collar work of all kinds.. all these are flooded with illegal immigrants who YOU and I are not forced to compete against but people of more limited means ARE forced ot compete against. These were all paths for Black entrepreneurs, but the left carpet bombed it with unlimited labor competition.

Ralph Nader used to make this point. Now it's some kind of xenophobia or some such shit.

There's an unlimited number of those people to be imported. What about the people who were born here? Why does the Left prioritize those people over Black people? Because they believe they will vote for them, that's why. They are importing Democratic voters and keeping Black people on welfare when they're not just outright aborting them in the womb.

That my friend is systemic racism.

The Left was against the TPP treaty which Hillary and Obama were going to ratify. They were in Seattle in the Battle iIn Seattle protesting exactly those things. The Left was against globalism and bad trrade deals like NAFTA.

But once Trump refomred, in the case of NAFTA or cancelled, in the case of the TPP, those things, they forgot all about their previous positions.

The Left is defined now by one big issue- identity poltics - which is nothing but a Marxism and racism stew. I'm not having any.

[–]Klondike 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have not heard of the walkaway movement, so I googled it. According to Wikipedia, it's about leaving the Democratic party, not progressivism; and also it's an astroturfed campaign by Russian bots. So "conspiracy"-ish? I guess?

Your point about immigrant competition in the labor market is interesting. I'll have to look into that some more, but my gut reactions: * The economy is not a zero-sum game. Is this competition actually removing opportunities from those with limited means? * Are immigrants actually making careers in these fields? How long do they do it for? In my personal experience, roofers and landscapers are always white guys. * Is there actually a realistic path for entrepreneurship here? The day laborers might be immigrants, but I expect that the actual business owners are white, and the business has been passed down generationally.

Certainly something worth looking into, and not something I've seen discussed.

But omg the TPP. You are 100% right on that. That was such a strange experience, seeing everyone on Reddit completely turn around, seemingly overnight. It certainly felt artificial and astroturfed. NPR also had a pushed campaign supporting it all of a sudden. But this may be due to the separation between progressives and the Democratic Party, which is much more corporatist.

Identity politics...now it's my turn to call "projection!" Republicans are all about the party line and purity tests. "RINO", anyone? And it's not about the argument, it's about who says it. See, for example, the sharp change in Republican voters' views on Russia and Vladimir Putin after Trump won the nomination. To identify as a Republican you must embrace it wholeheartedly or else be a traitor to the party.

[–]AsInBeer 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I have not heard of the walkaway movement, so I googled it.

OK. You're in an information bubble. I am not insulting you. I am informing you of something you don't know.

According to Wikipedia,

Yeah well, find another source because Wikipedia editor wars over Trump and anything related to politics are insane. Sorry to tell you this but Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.
Walk-away is not a Russian intelligence operation, OK? How many more things do we have to hear are Russina operations? Want an enemy? Look at China. They're the mortal threat to this nation. Putin is a Russian nationalist who barely has enough people to cover the Russian land mass anymore.

Geopolitically speaking, if the US went under, Russia would not be able to stand up to China, except by invoking some kind of nuclear end-of-the-world scenario. They know it, we know it and China knows it. Russia is not likely to be too interested in upending the US and the order it keeps in this world.

I worked as a roofer and dishwasher in the midwest and so. cal. It's all illegal aliens, like, 90%. Again, a bubble people don't know. The illegal aliens hanging around HomeDepot waiting for day labor jobs, just to pluck one phenomena out of the air related to the topic, is not something you're probably aware of. There are tens of millions of illegla aliens in the US working jobs which otherwise would have been done by an American. The same is true on the high end with H1-Bs. I know because I'm there now. Every programmer is well aware fo this. There wwas a programmer's union (a progressive idea) a while back and they were formed to try to get the H1B thing under some control. It's wage supression on a mass scale.

Consider that the Chamber of Commerce is supporting Biden. Why do you think that is? Trump has really psuhed back against H1Bs, J1 visas (which are given to people in graduate schools) NAFTA and all these other trade deals.

In 1992 there was a candidate named Ross Perot who famously said there woudl be a giant sucking sound as jobs went south of the border as if NAFTA was passed. He was exactly right and that's how things stayed until Trump got in. Ralph Nader et. al. (my guys) were completely against NAFTA. It was as bad as its billing. It's just John Deere and Corning executives outsourcing their costs to no-labor-law no enviro-law nations , continuing to charge the same price to their US customers and pocketing the difference, then exiting stage right after their bonuses have been paid out for "doing so well".

RINO just refers to a corporatist Republican. You distinguish between progressives and corporatist Democrats, right? Same thing. It's the difference between being for the free market or wanting crony capitalism. We like the first and hate the second.

Conservative hate crony capitalism and the chamber of Commerce and all that. Hate. Them.

Re Putin, all any conservative I know thinks about this guy is Trump did not collude with him. That's what the Mueller Report actually says- no evidence found he colluded with Russia.

Here' something I am pretty sue you don't know- the warrant which was issued to spy on Carter Page was based on an email which a certain Clinesmith deliberately and knowingly altered to change from saying Carter Page was working WITH the U.S. CIA AGAINST Russia to say he was NOT doing that and never had.

That implicated any Russian contact Carter Page had with Russia as suspect and was used to obtaina FISA warrant against him and by extension the entire Trump campaign. This is the first guilty plea in what conservatives know as the Russiagatte scandal. He's said to be cooperating with the Durham investigation.

I voted for Perot. I voted for Trump for exactly the same reason. What the TPP would have done to us is horrendous. The IP laws it would have spread everywhere over the globe are horrifying. I my view, just so you understand it, Trump is clearly standing up to the globalist scheme and the globalists or the people in govt who are globalists aka The Swamp is fighting back with one allegation after another. The media is just the communication wing of the Democratic Party. Ditto academia and Hollywood and Big Tech which systematically supresses conservative voices.

Conservatives don't think they control jack, and they're right. They have almost zero cultural power. RINOs like the Chamber of Commerce et. al. are freaking scum who just want to snort a few more lines of coke off the dead asses of the working Americans whose lives they destroyed.

Does that sound like what you hear progressives say, or rather, used to say? Because progressives now are all about de-bordering this nation and really, all nations ... and then what? Well of course, there has to be SOME kind of governance over all these former nations, right?

Hey... maybe we just need One Government in this World....

This is how we see things. Globalist want to destroy nations and subjugatte people under a NWO. It's exatly what the Chinese Commuist Party did to the Chinese people- cheered on by American liberals at the time, btw, who romanticized Mao..

Remember the Beatle lyric: " and if you're talking about Chairman Mao / You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.."

They wrote that because whole sections of the Left at the time was just in love with Mao and the Communists in China.

My understanding of Trump is he's pro-worker, pro-American, as directly opposed to pro-globalist, color-blind, and non-racist and pro-gay. That is how he was thought of for thirty years in NYC and how he spoke for 30 year.s Again, Trump hasn't changed, the Left has. They are total radicals with a delusionsal understanding of how this world works which they nevertheless would try to instantiate on the US, thereby destroying it. This is how we see things.

[–]AsInBeer 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unless you have really bought into the anit-free speech movement or Critical Theory shit, we just can't be that different. I am a classical Liberal. Big L. Progressive. My whole life. I still believe nearly all the things I ever did.

But the Left has gone insane. Believe me, I knew people who hated Shakespeare for being a Dead White Male. I thought they were stupid, myopic, narcissists who were looking to elevate themselves over people like Shakespeare by devising a kind of retroactive morality test designed to make him fail and them pass. They disgusted me, but they weren't in control of anything. They were the lunatic fringe. Now they run the joint. That's terrifying. I am watching my country descend into a kind of madness and it's terrifying and what makes it 10x worse is the corporations and coporate media and the universities and all of one of the two parties and half of the other are all in.

This is what it feels like to be watching a fascist movement rise around you and peoople starting to fall in line. You start thinking existentially, you start reengineering your life and effort and time around defeating it.